Bengal TE strategy

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 05:10 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: When I read your OP the first thing that came to mind was how the Saints used Jimmy Graham. I’m not saying Sample can’t do it, but from the scouting reports that doesn’t seem like a good fit for him. He seems like more of a traditional person inline TE. But, the traditional inline TE doesn’t seem to be what Taylor is looking for. Or is it?  That’s why I asked about Taylor’s use of a TE, FB, or H back.

The TE usually does not play a big receiving role in the offense that Taylor has used here and with the Rams.  But I am thinking that he might tweak that a bit to help Burrow.

Some people act like we are going to completely re-design our offense to mirror what Burrow ran at LSU.  I don't think that is true.  But in general rookie QBs like having a dependable TE or a slot receiver that works underneath like Housh did when we did not throw to our TEs as much.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The following post is a compilation of different comments and stats from ProFootballOutsiders.

Taylor has a specific offensive scheme that he likes to employ.  Last year no team in the league used 3+ WR more often than the Bengals, and only one team used multiple RBs less often.  So it will be interesting to see how Taylor uses his TEs in the 2020 "Burrow Offense".  At LSU Burrow threw over half his passes to slot receivers, but in the LSU offense that included TE Thaddeus Moss.

Last year Eifert had 64 targets while Uzomah had 40.  While they were both listed as "TE", they were used in completely opposite manners.  Seventy-five percent of Eifert's targets came when he was lined up in the slot or out wide.  That was the 4th HIGHEST percentage among all TEs in the league (min 25 targets).  On the other had only 15% of Uzomah's targets came when he was slot/wide and that was the 5th LOWEST rate among all TEs in the league.

So even though Eifert played almost half of the offensive snaps last year (491) he was mainly a slot receiver or even a WR.  Uzomah played 644 snaps, but he was much more of a traditional TE.  So how will Taylor replace the snaps that Eifert had?  Since Burrow loves to look at the slot/TE so often I wonder if we will just use an extra WR instead of Eifert.  Or will Uzomah get more snaps lining up in the slot or out wide.  Or will Sample get the snaps when the TE moves out to the slot/wide position?

Thoughts?

Excellent question.  And while this is certain to draw the ire of a lot of folks that tell me being a TE isn't as easy as just putting on 20 lbs (thanks, I am aware of that) the manner in which Eifert was used will likely be replaced by two individuals:  Auden Tate and Tee Higgins.  Big-bodied, wide catch-radius receivers with good hands.  Neither is going to win many foot races, but with the likes of Ross and Green drawing coverage outside and deep, the middle of the field should be a feast for the likes of Mixon, Boyd, and Tate/Higgins.  Uzo will likely rotate with sample in being lined up as a traditional TE but still receive some targets.

My guess is Higgins and Tate because both have the talent to be on the field right now, but who do you sit?  Certainly not Green, Boyd, or Ross.  Having four WRs AND a RB in the pattern will give opposing defenses a choice:  blitz and be picked apart by Burrow or try to get pressure with your front four.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 03:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Sample pick just gets curiouser and curiouser.

He was undoubtedly picked too early and has a very limited amount of targets (read, inexperienced) but I believe the Bengals (as did I) see his potential as a receiver and that he was just not used much in that element.  He was an excellent blocker and they saw great hands when he was targeted.  His book ins't written yet, but yes...he was drafted about two rounds too early.  

[fredtoast]

(07-29-2020, 05:57 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He was undoubtedly picked too early and has a very limited amount of targets (read, inexperienced) but I believe the Bengals (as did I) see his potential as a receiver and that he was just not used much in that element.  He was an excellent blocker and they saw great hands when he was targeted.  His book ins't written yet, but yes...he was drafted about two rounds too early.  

You have absolutely no way of knowing how other NFL teams had Sample rated.

The same "experts" you are depending on said that Mack Wilson was a second-third round pick.  and I can find plenty of other examples from every draft if you don't believe me.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 03:57 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Think it’s more about each teams specific personnel as to why they utilize certain positions like the slot more and run specific formations. For instance Burrow probably threw more to the slot and TE at LSU because Moss and Jefferson the WR who played the slot were LSU’s best offensive players.  We have a great slot WR in Boyd for Burrow to go to and when you have Green ,Higgins and Ross as weapons your TE will more than likely be a 3rd or 4th option. Taylor came form the Rams who probably ran 3 WR sets because they had 3 good WR’s in Kupp, Woods and Cooks. When Taylor 1st took over I think he envisioned 3 WR sets with Green, Ross and Boyd before all the injuries. I think we’ll  be fine running 3 WR sets because we’re pretty stacked there with Green, Boyd, Ross and Higgins. I think we just need Sample and and Uzomah to be serviceable, block and catch when thrown to.

Actually not true.  Their best receiver was Ja'marr Chase and Clyde Edwards-Helaire was a beast out of the backfield, and a pretty damn good receiver as well.  I think there are some similarities between the offenses with Chase being the AJ Green, Mixon the CE-H, and Boyd being Jefferson.  They didn't use their TEs very much, either...but I completely agree with your assessment about what is needed out of our TEs.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-29-2020, 05:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The TE usually does not play a big receiving role in the offense that Taylor has used here and with the Rams.  But I am thinking that he might tweak that a bit to help Burrow.

Some people act like we are going to completely re-design our offense to mirror what Burrow ran at LSU.  I don't think that is true.  But in general rookie QBs like having a dependable TE or a slot receiver that works underneath like Housh did when we did not throw to our TEs as much.

Which again makes the Sample pick curiouser and curiouser.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(07-29-2020, 06:53 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Which again makes the Sample pick curiouser and curiouser.

The plan seemed to be to double-dip at O-line - remember they even tried to trade up for one in the 2nd and eventually did in the 4th - but there was a run and Cody Ford, Greg Little and Dalton Risner all went in quick succession and they missed out. So they then instead traded back in the second to a spot I suspect they hadn't really planned for. I reckon they then wanted to trade back from that spot too but couldn't find a partner so took Sample who they'd probably earmarked for later.

That whole draft seemed a mess - from trading up for a QB in the 4th a year before they took a QB first overall to failing to address linebacker other than Pratt (the 6th round pick Davis not even being able to make the roster - imagine not being able to find a single ST linebacker with all those late picks or in UDFAs!) - if we're being charitable it was very much the draft of a rookie Head Coach with a staff appointed very late in the day. Both the draft and free agency were attacked with a lot more purpose this year.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-29-2020, 06:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have absolutely no way of knowing how other NFL teams had Sample rated.

The same "experts" you are depending on said that Mack Wilson was a second-third round pick.  and I can find plenty of other examples from every draft if you don't believe me.

Where i had him rated had nothing to do with where other teams had him rated.  It is a matter of draft equity, as there were numerous players I would have used that draft equity before Sample in Rd 2.  If he was gone in Rd 4, I would have not shed any tears.  I liked him a lot as a developmental player, but I will not use a 2nd round pick on that type of player.  Remember Margus Hunt?

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 09:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Where i had him rated had nothing to do with where other teams had him rated.  It is a matter of draft equity, as there were numerous players I would have used that draft equity before Sample in Rd 2.  If he was gone in Rd 4, I would have not shed any tears.  I liked him a lot as a developmental player, but I will not use a 2nd round pick on that type of player.  Remember Margus Hunt?

Yeah, I remember Margus Hunt.  Anyone can find a bad draft pick with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I also remember that this year you had the 27th pick in the first round, Jordan Brooks, rated as a fourth rounder.

Want me to go back and check all your mocks from previous years to see if you are really smarter than NFL scouts?  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, I remember Margus Hunt.  Anyone can find a bad draft pick with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I also remember that this year you had the 27th pick in the first round, Jordan Brooks, rated as a fourth rounder.

Want me to go back and check all your mocks from previous years to see if you are really smarter than NFL scouts?  

I'm flattered that you would take the time to dispel some of my draft insights, but as always, you would likely highlight my whiffs and ignore my hits.  My record is actually pretty good and why don't you check out how much I loved Derwin James.  That guy is an elite player and a difference maker.  But this isn't about me....it is about the clarification of why I had Sample rated as a 4th rounder (based on draft equity value) to which you tried to diminish my opinion by stating that I had no idea what other teams had him rated as (which is true, and I didn't dispute) but my mention of Margus Hunt was using an early round pick on a "project", which is what you would have to classify Sample (at least as a receiving TE) given his minimal targets in college.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, I remember Margus Hunt.  Anyone can find a bad draft pick with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I also remember that this year you had the 27th pick in the first round, Jordan Brooks, rated as a fourth rounder.

Want me to go back and check all your mocks from previous years to see if you are really smarter than NFL scouts?  

While I have never asserted that I am really smarter than NFL scouts (at least not at scouting the NFL), the so-called "rated" as a fourth-rounder was based on what a SIM I had done showed him to be available.  I went back about 4 years to find a sim and see what I could find...This one isn't too bad.   Ironic, as the Bengals brought in two of them as FA this year.  

The last three are duds, but the first five?  And exactly how has our CB and Safety play been?  The middle of the defense?  Think I knew what I was doing, but I guess because I had Sample's value as a fourth rounder (where he was available in multiple SIMs) means I don't know anything about scouting.  

Your Picks:

Round 2 Pick 2 (TENN): Mackensie Alexander, CB, Clemson (B+)
Round 2 Pick 20 (NYJ): Sterling Shepard, WR, Oklahoma (B+)
Round 2 Pick 24: Michael Thomas, WR, Ohio State (A)
Round 3 Pick 24: Justin Simmons, FS, Boston College (A)
Round 4 Pick 24: D.J. Reader, DT, Clemson ©
Round 5 Pick 22: Travis Feeney, OLB/ILB, Washington ©
Round 6 Pick 24: Ken Crawley, CB, Colorado (D+)
Round 7 Pick 24: Devon Johnson, RB, Marshall ©

I got a "F" on this draft, but I like what it addresses....The security of a CB if we lose Dre Kirk (I told a buddy that Manning pick on primetime football made him an additional 10 million on his next contract), the WRs needed at slot and X, depth at the safety position, talent to plug holes and defend the run as well as some low-risk, high-reward late picks that may contribute.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 01:32 PM)SHRacerX Wrote:  I guess because I had Sample's value as a fourth rounder (where he was available in multiple SIMs) means I don't know anything about scouting.  

Calm down.  All I said was that you don't know how other NFL teams had Sample rated.  And that is clearly true.

You don't really do any scouting.  You don't interview college coaches.  You don't review medical records.  I don't know your history as far as playing or coaching football, but you probably don't have the background and experience needed to properly break down game film.

You just depend on what you read.  And those guys are often wrong.  I have no idea what a SIM is but you can't say Sample was a fourth round pick.  If the Bengals had him rated that high then there is a good chance other NFL teams did also.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 02:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Calm down.  All I said was that you don't know how other NFL teams had Sample rated.  And that is clearly true.

You don't really do any scouting.  You don't interview college coaches.  You don't review medical records.  I don't know your history as far as playing or coaching football, but you probably don't have the background and experience needed to properly break down game film.

You just depend on what you read.  And those guys are often wrong.  I have no idea what a SIM is but you can't say Sample was a fourth round pick.  If the Bengals had him rated that high then there is a good chance other NFL teams did also.

You don't know what you are talking about...

[coachmcneil71]

(07-29-2020, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The following post is a compilation of different comments and stats from ProFootballOutsiders.

Taylor has a specific offensive scheme that he likes to employ.  Last year no team in the league used 3+ WR more often than the Bengals, and only one team used multiple RBs less often.  So it will be interesting to see how Taylor uses his TEs in the 2020 "Burrow Offense".  At LSU Burrow threw over half his passes to slot receivers, but in the LSU offense that included TE Thaddeus Moss.

Last year Eifert had 64 targets while Uzomah had 40.  While they were both listed as "TE", they were used in completely opposite manners.  Seventy-five percent of Eifert's targets came when he was lined up in the slot or out wide.  That was the 4th HIGHEST percentage among all TEs in the league (min 25 targets).  On the other had only 15% of Uzomah's targets came when he was slot/wide and that was the 5th LOWEST rate among all TEs in the league.

So even though Eifert played almost half of the offensive snaps last year (491) he was mainly a slot receiver or even a WR.  Uzomah played 644 snaps, but he was much more of a traditional TE.  So how will Taylor replace the snaps that Eifert had?  Since Burrow loves to look at the slot/TE so often I wonder if we will just use an extra WR instead of Eifert.  Or will Uzomah get more snaps lining up in the slot or out wide.  Or will Sample get the snaps when the TE moves out to the slot/wide position?

Thoughts?

Good post, Fred. Don't sleep on UDFA Mitch Wilcox out of S.Florida. He fits that mold. Very good hands.

(07-29-2020, 03:15 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Auden Tate seems a likely replacement for Eifert - not as a TE but as the big WR that Eifert was often used as.

I like Tate and he fits he mold as well. Ts, Mitch Wilcox may surprise some of you guys.

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 03:13 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You don't know what you are talking about...

I apologize.  I had not idea you were interviewing college coaches and reviewing the medical records of these college prospects.


All I absolutely know to be 100% true is that you have no idea how actual NFL teams rank these players.  Your mock drafts prove that.  So you have no idea if Sample was rated as a fourth round pick by all the other NFL teams or not.

So when you say he was drafted two rounds too early you have no credibility.

And I am finished with this subject.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-29-2020, 05:11 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Yup were good in the slot Boyd is a stud in there. As far as TE we just need solid play we should have enough fire power with Green, Boyd, Higgins, Ross and Mixion, I'm more worried about the offensive line. 

Same worry, should be better than last year with Jonah at LT as he grows but the right side of the Line worries me.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-30-2020, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I apologize.  I had not idea you were interviewing college coaches and reviewing the medical records of these college prospects.


All I absolutely know to be 100% true is that you have no idea how actual NFL teams rank these players.  Your mock drafts prove that.  So you have no idea if Sample was rated as a fourth round pick by all the other NFL teams or not.

So when you say he was drafted two rounds too early you have no credibility.

And I am finished with this subject.

Yeah, all scouts and coaches walk on water and are so much more superior to every dude on here...

[BengalChris]

(07-29-2020, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The following post is a compilation of different comments and stats from ProFootballOutsiders.

Taylor has a specific offensive scheme that he likes to employ.  Last year no team in the league used 3+ WR more often than the Bengals, and only one team used multiple RBs less often.  So it will be interesting to see how Taylor uses his TEs in the 2020 "Burrow Offense".  At LSU Burrow threw over half his passes to slot receivers, but in the LSU offense that included TE Thaddeus Moss.

Last year Eifert had 64 targets while Uzomah had 40.  While they were both listed as "TE", they were used in completely opposite manners.  Seventy-five percent of Eifert's targets came when he was lined up in the slot or out wide.  That was the 4th HIGHEST percentage among all TEs in the league (min 25 targets).  On the other had only 15% of Uzomah's targets came when he was slot/wide and that was the 5th LOWEST rate among all TEs in the league.

So even though Eifert played almost half of the offensive snaps last year (491) he was mainly a slot receiver or even a WR.  Uzomah played 644 snaps, but he was much more of a traditional TE.  So how will Taylor replace the snaps that Eifert had?  Since Burrow loves to look at the slot/TE so often I wonder if we will just use an extra WR instead of Eifert.  Or will Uzomah get more snaps lining up in the slot or out wide.  Or will Sample get the snaps when the TE moves out to the slot/wide position?

Thoughts?

I expect Boyd to get most of the slot time and catches with AJ moving inside some times.

Higgins will be fine on the outside opposite AJ.

Sample will come in to block. Eifert's 65 targets last season will not go to Sample, who I doubt has had 65 targets in his entire football career.

Ross will be used to run down the field a few times a game until he breaks again. Burrow will throw him a bone once in a while.

 

[fredtoast]

(07-30-2020, 05:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, all scouts and coaches walk on water and are so much more superior to every dude on here...

They don't walk on water.  They aren't perfect.  But anyone here who thinks he is as qualified as an NFL scout in judging talent is kidding himself.

[EatonFan]

(07-29-2020, 04:48 PM)pally Wrote: John Ross does not have the physicality for that position.  It is not even close.  Slot takes away his speed which is supposed to be his biggest weapon

Not sure about that.  Ross would be a good shallow cross option using his speed to outrun LBs and the CB across from him (if man to man).