Tee Higgins

[impactplaya]

(08-05-2020, 03:33 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Beyond false, but that's fine.

I'm not saying he a world-beater or that he's even a lock to make the team, but Erickson has proven that he belongs in the league, with precise routes, great agility and excellent hands.

Furthermore, he was a former QB (not half bad either), thus he can be used for 1 play a game on reverses/throws/gadgets/etc. I hate those plays and they don't always work, but the threat of someone on your team who CAN do that, is valuable, even if only a little bit.

People forget that his only TD of his career, he beat Bradley Roby WHILE LINED UP OUTSIDE; no slot, no picks or rubs, just pure speed and beating his man with timing and skills.

He should remain on this team for the next 5 years, as the last receiver on the roster.


Most of us took it that way as well (pretty obvious).

The last few years injuries have hit the Bengals WR pretty hard. Green has missed 20 something games. Ross has missed what 14 to 16...Boyd missed what 3 last year. 
Erickson had every chance to really step up and be a factor. 
I like his hands and route running. Problem is he has no wiggle after the catch or afterburners. 
He had no TDS.Last year He has one for his career. 
The WR room is,really loaded with talent this year. There may not be room for Erickson. Plus they signed Mike Thomas
His return jobs were given to better performers.
He belongs on a NFL roster if you need a possession guy. 
But the Bengals have those guys already 
Erickson could play for a WR needy team like the Jets or Giants. 

[Whatever]

(08-05-2020, 12:28 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think they should consider working Ross into one of the return spots.  

He was an excellent returner in college, and was billed as being able to easily transition into that role in the NFL.  I can understand not initially wanting to use him there, with him being such a high pick.  At that point you're banking on him being in a major role in the offense, and wouldn't want to lose him to a Special Teams injury.

But now?  He's slid further down the depth chart, and his long-term prospects here are greatly in question.  So why not use his strengths to get him some added touches?  I really don't think Alex Erickson is good enough to roster on his punt returning ability alone, and he offers nothing in the pass game on this roster.  I'd give Ross the PR job, and cut Erickson.

The player many people compared John Ross to when he came out was Desean Jackson.  It would be a shame to just let a potential ST threat go completely unused for all 4 years.

There is absolutely no way I cut Erickson this year because of COVID.  A guy who can return kicks and punts and play both outside and slot WR is just too valuable. He definitely falls into that "jack of all trades, master of none"category, but he is too versatile to let go with the current circumstances.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-05-2020, 03:33 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Beyond false, but that's fine.

I'm not saying he a world-beater or that he's even a lock to make the team, but Erickson has proven that he belongs in the league, with precise routes, great agility and excellent hands.

The key part of my statement was on this roster.

Here are the guys who 100% are ahead of him, in terms of who you keep for 2020....

1.) Green
2.) Boyd
3.) Higgins
4.) Ross
5.) Tate

Now here's who he is left competing with for the final spot...

-Damion Willis
-Mike Thomas
-Stanley Morgan
-Damarkus Lodge
-Scotty Washington
-Trenton Irwin

Every single one of these guys is younger than Erickson. Every single one of them are bigger than Erickson. Every single one of them is CHEAPER than Erickson.

My point was that the only reason you keep Erickson is for ST.  Why pay your 6th receiver 2 mil + a year when there's younger and cheaper options.  The only answer to that is ST.

Is Alex Erickson such a good returner that he deserves a roster spot to solely do that?  IMHO, not really.  He's a competent return man, but he's far, far from special.

But all of this applies to this roster.  I never said he had no business being in the league.  There are other teams could add some much needed depth, where he could maybe slide up to the 5th best guy.  I just don't think thats' the case here.  He's got 5 guys who are clearly better than him on the depth chart.

If Ross were to get a chance at return duties, which I think he should, then I think that makes Erickson's value plummet to next to nothing.  That was my point. There's no reason to pay Erickson more than Higgins and Tate combined, to sit on the bottom of the depth chart, if you have another option as a return man.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-05-2020, 04:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: There is absolutely no way I cut Erickson this year because of COVID.  A guy who can return kicks and punts and play both outside and slot WR is just too valuable. He definitely falls into that "jack of all trades, master of none"category, but he is too versatile to let go with the current circumstances.

Erickson can play outside? I don't recall ever seeing him do so.
However, I only watched about 6 games last year, so perhaps I missed that.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-05-2020, 04:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: There is absolutely no way I cut Erickson this year because of COVID.  A guy who can return kicks and punts and play both outside and slot WR is just too valuable. He definitely falls into that "jack of all trades, master of none"category, but he is too versatile to let go with the current circumstances.

Fair enough, I can understand the argument, but only because of Covid.  If it were any other year then I think he's obvious candidate to be released.

[Bengalitis]

(08-05-2020, 01:43 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I honestly don't think anything is going to fix Ross. Bad pick, just have to move on from it.

They will, they did not extend.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-05-2020, 04:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The key part of my statement was on this roster.

Here are the guys who 100% are ahead of him, in terms of who you keep for 2020....

1.) Green
2.) Boyd
3.) Higgins
4.) Ross
5.) Tate

Now here's who he is left competing with for the final spot...

-Damion Willis
-Mike Thomas
-Stanley Morgan
-Damarkus Lodge
-Scotty Washington
-Trenton Irwin

Every single one of these guys is younger than Erickson. Every single one of them are bigger than Erickson. Every single one of them is CHEAPER than Erickson.

My point was that the only reason you keep Erickson is for ST.  Why pay your 6th receiver 2 mil + a year when there's younger and cheaper options.  The only answer to that is ST.

Is Alex Erickson such a good returner that he deserves a roster spot to solely do that?  IMHO, not really.  He's a competent return man, but he's far, far from special.

But all of this applies to this roster.  I never said he had no business being in the league.  There are other teams could add some much needed depth, where he could maybe slide up to the 5th best guy.  I just don't think thats' the case here.  He's got 5 guys who are clearly better than him on the depth chart.

If Ross were to get a chance at return duties, which I think he should, then I think that makes Erickson's value plummet to next to nothing.  That was my point.  There's no reason to pay Erickson more than Higgins and Tate combined, to sit on the bottom of the depth chart, if you have another option as a return man.

Indeed.

Erickson's primary assets are durability and PR/KR.
Wilson and Phillips can do returns.
Both covered KR last year while Erickson did PR.
Ross also did KR in college.
Bernard did PR his final year in college.


Basically, Erickson's value is diminishing, as they have plenty of players who can fill his role.

[*Synric*]

It's easy to see John Ross having a breakout year 55 catches 650 yards and like 7 to 10 TDs. Especially if he gets moved around in the offense more.

Ross looks like he spent some extra time in the weight room this year. We know he worked on his mechanics and routes this offseason because he did so a few times with Joe Burrow. Ross was on the edge of becoming a true playmaker in 2019 but that freak landing on his arm killed his year.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-05-2020, 04:27 PM)Synric Wrote: It's easy to see John Ross having a breakout year 55 catches 650 yards and like 7 to 10 TDs. Especially if he gets moved around in the offense more.

Where do you see Green, Boyd and Higgins ending up if Ross hits your mark?

[*Synric*]

(08-05-2020, 04:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Where do you see Green, Boyd and Higgins ending up if Ross hits your mark?

In a perfect world? AJ 1100, Boyd 800, Ross 650, Higgins who would be WR 4 350. That's 2900 yards for the WR core.

Say 1100 split between the TEs and RBs (TE 600, RB, 500) that's 4000 passing yards for Burrow as a Rookie which is what 50 yards shy of the record?


Of course that's a perfect world with Zero injuries.

[Murdock2420]

(08-05-2020, 03:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You're blowing his "giving up on routes and passes" way out of proportion.
People saw it happen once along the sideline two years ago and assume it happens every game.

I saw it more then once. Sure some of Andy's deep throws weren't pretty or perfect, but Ross wouldn't even reach up for the ball or he'd quit running full speed and I can't think of a single time I have seen him lay out for a catch. 

Just want to see effort, and he never seems to really show that.


This lack of effort here is just pathetic...

The CB knocks him slightly off his route and he quits running and quits looking for the ball. That is inexcusable.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-05-2020, 05:22 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I saw it more then once. Sure some of Andy's deep throws weren't pretty or perfect, but Ross wouldn't even reach up for the ball or he'd quit running full speed and I can't think of a single time I have seen him lay out for a catch. 

Just want to see effort, and he never seems to really show that.

Bro, we've seen the exact same type of thing from AJ Green multiple times. Not reaching up for the ball, not laying out for a catch, not coming back to the ball and trying to high point.

People aren't criticizing Green like they do Ross because Green has produced multiple 1000 yard seasons, but he's guilty of the same things you talk about. Many receivers are.

I think you need to be a little more relaxed and understand that not every receiver is going to do exactly what you think they should do.

People focus too much on the negatives with Ross and not looking at the positives.

Positives:
0 yards rookie year -> 210 yards soph year -> 506 yards junior year.
10 TDs the past two seasons (most out of all receivers).
Was on pace for 1000+ yards last year if he had played all 16 games.
10.0 YPR soph year -> 18.1 YPR junior year.

His biggest issue has been staying on the field in his 3-year career, not the minor gaffes.

Believe what you want, but I see a player growing into his own each and every year, not someone who is hopeless.
Was it a reach of a pick? Absolutely in hindsight, but so were Corey Davis and Mike Williams, both of whom were picked before Ross. The Bengals had the 9th pick and liked Ross's skill set and potential. We don't know if they attempted to trade back or not, or if Ross would have even been available if they had traded back.

[Murdock2420]

More great video of John Ross just dropping balls and not finishing a route.




So... this is not over-blown, this is a trend.

[Murdock2420]

(08-05-2020, 05:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bro, we've seen the exact same type of thing from AJ Green multiple times. Not reaching up for the ball, not laying out for a catch, not coming back to the ball and trying to high point.

People aren't criticizing Green like they do Ross because Green has produced multiple 1000 yard seasons, but he's guilty of the same things you talk about. Many receivers are.

I think you need to be a little more relaxed and understand that not every receiver is going to do exactly what you think they should do.

People focus too much on the negatives with Ross and not looking at the positives.

Positives:
0 yards rookie year -> 210 yards soph year -> 506 yards junior year.
10 TDs the past two seasons (most out of all receivers).
Was on pace for 1000+ yards last year if he had played all 16 games.
10.0 YPR soph year -> 18.1 YPR junior year.

His biggest issue has been staying on the field in his 3-year career, not the minor gaffes.

Believe what you want, but I see a player growing into his own each and every year, not someone who is hopeless.
Was it a reach of a pick? Absolutely in hindsight, but so were Corey Davis and Mike Williams, both of whom were picked before Ross. The Bengals had the 9th pick and liked Ross's skill set and potential. We don't know if they attempted to trade back or not, or if Ross would have even been available if they had traded back.

Look at the two videos I linked... 

That is not growth. Unless your a potato and grow into the ground not out of it....

[*ochocincos*]

(08-05-2020, 05:39 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Look at the two videos I linked... 

That is not growth. Unless your a potato and grow into the ground not out of it....

Going through the videos, which you had not posted when I responded...

Video 1: It's pretty clear didn't realize the ball was thrown to him until it was too late, no?

Video 2:
- first throw is definitely Ross's fault. Should have caught that.

- Second throw - That was a difficult throw to catch, as it was low. If Dalton had thrown it more accurately (i.e. right at Ross such that he didn't have to dive for it), perhaps Ross would have caught it.

- Third throw - Ross had to jump up and make the catch, which also isn't where the throw should be. It should have been thrown ahead of Ross so he could catch it in stride. Ross was also hit right after it hit his hands, so he likely wasn't catching it regardless.

- Fourth throw - should have had that one. Easy, short.

- Fifth throw - stumbled coming out of his route. Not exactly him giving up on a route or fumbling a catch.

- Sixth throw - Yes, should have had it. Had wide open space.

So yes, there were more instances than I realized. I didn't watch every snap of every game last year though, as I don't get Bengals on local TV, nor do I pay for Sunday Ticket, and I miss some plays/games when I'm at the bar trying to watch due to lack of audio.

So I would say out of those 7 throws, only 3 of them were due to clear drops by him. The remaining 4 I explained why I was more forgiving on Ross than you may have been.

Also, you are willfully stubborn if you think going from 0 yards to 210 yards to 506 yards and increased receptions is not growth. You're focusing on the gaffes rather than the improved production, of which Ross had.

You may be absolutely right that Ross might have a higher number of gaffes than most receivers in his career. But I'd rather have Ross out there than Tate or Erickson, as Ross produced 506/3 in 8 games compared to Tate's 575/1 in 12 games and Erickson's 529/0 in 16. Ross has a higher ceiling than both.

[Murdock2420]

(08-05-2020, 06:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Going through the videos, which you had not posted when I responded...

Video 1: It's pretty clear didn't realize the ball was thrown to him until it was too late, no?

Video 2:
- first throw is definitely Ross's fault. Should have caught that.

- Second throw - That was a difficult throw to catch, as it was low. If Dalton had thrown it more accurately (i.e. right at Ross such that he didn't have to dive for it), perhaps Ross would have caught it.

- Third throw - Ross had to jump up and make the catch, which also isn't where the throw should be. It should have been thrown ahead of Ross so he could catch it in stride. Ross was also hit right after it hit his hands, so he likely wasn't catching it regardless.

- Fourth throw - should have had that one. Easy, short.

- Fifth throw - stumbled coming out of his route. Not exactly him giving up on a route or fumbling a catch.

- Sixth throw - Yes, should have had it. Had wide open space.

So yes, there were more instances than I realized. I didn't watch every snap of every game last year though, as I don't get Bengals on local TV, nor do I pay for Sunday Ticket, and I miss some plays/games when I'm at the bar trying to watch due to lack of audio.

So I would say out of those 7 throws, only 3 of them were due to clear drops by him. The remaining 4 I explained why I was more forgiving on Ross than you may have been.

Also, you are willfully stubborn if you think going from 0 yards to 210 yards to 506 yards and increased receptions is not growth. You're focusing on the gaffes rather than the improved production, of which Ross had.

You may be absolutely right that Ross might have a higher number of gaffes than most receivers in his career. But I'd rather have Ross out there than Tate or Erickson, as Ross produced 506/3 in 8 games compared to Tate's 575/1 in 12 games and Erickson's 529/0 in 16. Ross has a higher ceiling than both.

Part of that growth is just not being injured. The 0 years is from a season he played 3 games, and only had 2 targets before he was out hurt.

There is improved production but the most important ability is availability and when you are dropping easy catches still in your 3rd year (2nd if you wash out year one due to injury) and now have to complete with Higgins, Boyd, Green and Tate for WR targets, I think he will be written off quickly if Burrow can't count on him to catch it or try to break up a pick. 

I want him to succeed, he wears a Bengal jersey, so as long as he is on this team I will want him to break out and be a success, I just think he's going to go the way of Ced, and Billy Price as first round what were they thinking picks.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-05-2020, 04:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Erickson can play outside? I don't recall ever seeing him do so.
However, I only watched about 6 games last year, so perhaps I missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R5hJNNqR40

3:00. Granted he's in the backfield, but he's outside.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-05-2020, 06:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Part of that growth is just not being injured. The 0 years is from a season he played 3 games, and only had 2 targets before he was out hurt.

There is improved production but the most important ability is availability and when you are dropping easy catches still in your 3rd year (2nd if you wash out year one due to injury) and now have to complete with Higgins, Boyd, Green and Tate for WR targets, I think he will be written off quickly if Burrow can't count on him to catch it or try to break up a pick. 

I want him to succeed, he wears a Bengal jersey, so as long as he is on this team I will want him to break out and be a success, I just think he's going to go the way of Ced, and Billy Price as first round what were they thinking picks.

Ross doesn't have the size to break up a pick. It's probably unrealistic expectations to expect him to play like a bigger receiver.
Ross needs to be used when you're looking for a receiver to get open quickly and get YAC, not someone who is going to win contested catches.

Regardless, Ross is in the final year, so this is make or break for him as a Bengal.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-05-2020, 03:57 PM)impactplaya Wrote: The last few years injuries have hit the Bengals WR pretty hard. Green has missed 20 something games. Ross has missed what 14 to 16...Boyd missed what 3 last year. 
Erickson had every chance to really step up and be a factor. 
I like his hands and route running. Problem is he has no wiggle after the catch or afterburners. 
He had no TDS.Last year He has one for his career. 
The WR room is,really loaded with talent this year. There may not be room for Erickson. Plus they signed Mike Thomas
His return jobs were given to better performers.
He belongs on a NFL roster if you need a possession guy.
But the Bengals have those guys already 
Erickson could play for a WR needy team like the Jets or Giants. 

1. Irrelevant. Erickson is still better than him in every facet of Teams, which is the only value Thomas has.
2. Still the best PR on the team; Phillips has shitty vision and Wilson is a KR.
3. Not true and that was the point of my first post; he's a jack-of-all-trades guy, an Antwaan Randle-El-type player (not as good at throwing the ball lol) and one of the best players on teams.

It makes no sense to cut him, but I can definitely see it happening. I just don't see Toast's argument about, "2 mil for your last receiver," being a big deal; 2 mil is pittance, even with the lower cap next year.

Keep the guy.

[*bfine32*]

To the sidebar: 15 players in the NFL had 150 PR yards or more in the NFL last year. Of those 50 Erickson had by far the worst YPR. Also only 2 PRs in the NFL had more fumbles than Erickson. He was also top 10 in fair catches. If we aren't looking at getting better at PR then we should and I have a feeling Simmons is.