PFF OL grades through week 4

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

FWIW, grades for the rest thru 4 games:

Offense:
QB: Burrow 79.9.
RB: Mixon 67.7; Bernard 64.4.
WR: Boyd 85.6, Higgins 65.8, Green 59.6; Tate 73.5, Thomas 66.1, Erickson 50.6, Ross 48.2.
TE: Uzomah 61.9; Sample 70.2, Carter 67.0.
OT: J. Williams 70.1, Hart 67.3
OG: XSF 75.5, Jordan 54.3, Redmond 54.6; Johnson 49.2, Price 38.8.
C: Hopkins 60.3

I think if Redmond had played vs better DLs (SD, CLE, PHI), he would be lower than Jordan.

Defense:
DE: Hubbard 61.6, Dunlap 55.4; Lawson 70.5, Bledsoe 68.1, Kareem 59.5.
DT: Reader 71.3, Daniels 50.1; Covington 60.2, A. Brown 46.1; Akinmoladun 62.5.
LB: Bynes 51.2, Pratt 44.1; L. Wilson 44.9, ADG 30.1, Evans 44.0.
CB: WJ3 67.5, Alexander 64.1, Phillips 57.5, Sims 59.9.
S: Bates 87.2, Bell 58.7; S. Williams 56.8.

This week, we could see Geno, Alexander, and L. Wilson return. And XSF is eligible to come off IR, though I think it may be a week or two more.

[ezekiel23]

(10-05-2020, 06:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF individual player grades are a joke.

Agree.It’s really red flag as just how accurate their ratings on individual players are,considering they have an overwhelming amount of data to go through every week.It’s just not feasible.I personally wouldn’t put a lot is stock in it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Watched Hart yesterday and thought he played a very good game. Good for him.

We needed this, Redmond looks to be an upgrade over Price, go figure.

Jonah had some very good blocks as did Trey Hop. This is what I wanted to see.

Sample is apart of this, he blocked very well. Needs some props. Carter also played decent.

[Yojimbo]

Ok, what is going on with the LB’s? It’s gotta be mathematically impossible that they are all this bad athletically/talent wise. Is it the scheme? Is it coaching? PFF grading issue?

[SunsetBengal]

(10-05-2020, 05:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I love PFF stats but something that makes me say "hhhhmmm.."

Trey's Pass score is 1.8 points higher than Jonah's and Jonah's run is 2.7 higher than Trey's; a difference of 0.9. But Jonah's total is 9.8 points higher than Trey's. This despite we throw much more than we run. 

Do you think that it has anything to do with LT being the "prestigious" position, and whatever they do gets more weight on the grading scale?

[Whatever]

(10-05-2020, 09:24 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Ok, what is going on with the LB’s? It’s gotta be mathematically impossible that they are all this bad athletically/talent wise. Is it the scheme? Is it coaching? PFF grading issue?

We have a terrible run defense.  Our LB's regularly miss tackles, blow assignments, and can't get off blocks. They're still young and should improve, but their grades shouldn't be at all surprising.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-05-2020, 05:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This must be a mistake, the Jungle board experts cry weekly he is a load of crap???????????????????? Oh and he is a very low paid veteran right tackle.

No he’s not. He’s the 15th highest paid RT in the league.

(10-05-2020, 05:35 PM)McC Wrote: To be fair to the Jungle board experts, a pass pro grade of 53 isn't that far from crap.

That grade is absolutely unacceptable when you’re taking about protecting a franchise QB. Idc how good he run blocks. We desperately need an upgrade.

[Yojimbo]

(10-05-2020, 10:21 PM)Whatever Wrote: We have a terrible run defense.  Our LB's regularly miss tackles, blow assignments, and can't get off blocks. They're still young and should improve, but their grades shouldn't be at all surprising.

Bynes isn’t young. He was supposed to be the vet leader and 51.9 is backup level.

[J24]

(10-05-2020, 09:24 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Ok, what is going on with the LB’s? It’s gotta be mathematically impossible that they are all this bad athletically/talent wise. Is it the scheme? Is it coaching? PFF grading issue?

Youth specifically with Gaither and Wilson. Pratt should be better so I don't know what his problem his right now. Both Pratt and Wilson looked really good against the Eagles but Wilson was hurt and didn't see much of Pratt against the Jags.

(10-05-2020, 10:49 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Bynes isn’t young. He was supposed to be the vet leader and 51.9 is backup level.

He should be a backup but he's playing too much for us this season.

[KillerGoose]

A couple of points I wanted to highlight.

Redmond gets beat

This is the second snap for Cincinnati and Redmond receives his "Welcome back" moment. This is a run play to the right and we have a double team on #90. From my guess, one of the two of Hart/Redmond is supposed to come off and get to the next level but the fact that Myles Jack blitzes throws a wrench in things. I can't comment on scheme because I don't know 100% what is supposed to be going on here. Hart stays with #90 which makes me think that Redmond was supposed to peel off but they could also have scenarios for when a linebacker is blitzing that could change things on the fly. It is really hard to say. I can comment on a couple of things. When the ball is snapped, Redmond is beaten to the punch and is actually knocked off balance by the defensive tackle, which is obviously bad whether Jack is blitzing or not. The timing of all of this is just perfect and Jack makes an incredibly athletic play by slithering underneath Redmond and grabbing Mixon in the backfield. You would really like to see Redmond with a better first step and stronger engagement here but this is an incredible play by Jack.




Hart struggles with the bullrush, but Jonah dominates


Same drive, one play later. The thing with Hart is that he is strong in the run game, but that strength disappears in pass pro. He struggles at all levels of pass blocking, but he really struggles with a bullrush in particular. He seems to catch defenders instead of relying on technique, and he allows their hands to get inside and to his center. Here, you're going to see the defender get his hands inside and drive Hart into the backfield, which causes Joe to escape the pocket. On the flip side, Jonah does an absolutely wonderful job of knocking the defenders arm away and preventing that initial contact. This doesn't allow the defender to get any leverage and he loses his balance. Jonah uses his hands really well here, grabs the defenders shoulder pads as he slips and then tosses him to the ground to take him out of the play. 




Hart & Redmond fail on the stunt 


Here, the Jaguars stunt their defensive end down and have a blitzing linebacker go around. A normal procedure is for the linemen to go into their kickstep and react based on what is coming at them. Hart and Redmond are sliding to the right slightly and if Redmond has his head on a swivel here, he could engage #41 and Hart could release to handle #47. This doesn't happen and the end crashes down, past Hart as he already had his outside momentum. I would expect Redmond to be responsible for #41. 



Miscommunication?


Not sure what else to say here. This has to be a miscommunication, #90 is untouched. Maybe Hart was supposed to crash down and block him? I am not entirely sure, but this can't be as designed. 



Nice Pocket

Not much else to say about this one. This is great protection. Watch every lineman and how they do in their assignments. I particularly love Jonah here but everyone does their job very well.



Hold on Hopkins


There is all kinds of action here and the line almost handles it perfectly. The defensive end is stunting around to the center of the field, Myles Jack blitzes inside and the tackle takes the outside. Hart and Redmond come out of their stance and they react. Redmond takes Jack, Hart picks up the DT and Hopkins ALMOST comes back to get the stunting end but he is a little too late. Good play by the defense.




These are all from the first quarter, as that is all I have gone through but I wanted to point these out.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(10-05-2020, 08:46 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: Agree.It’s really red flag as just how accurate their ratings on individual players are,considering they have an overwhelming amount of data to go through every week.It’s just not feasible.I personally wouldn’t put a lot is stock in it.

Gotta say I disagree. I mean, sure, there can be quibbles with individual guys, but writ large, and relative to each other, I think those grades correspond to what my eyes have seen. Examples:

1) Bates has been lights out
2) Burrow has been good
3) Boyd is our best receiver.
4) Ross is our worst receiver
5) Green has struggled
6) DEs have been poor, Lawson best in show.
7) The CBs are decent but not phenomenal.
8) Williams is our best OL.
9) Price & Johnson are awful.
10) The DTs & LBs have been mediocre (at best), but Reader is the best of the bunch.

The ratings concur. I'd call that pretty good. I mean, if they had Dunlap, Hubbard, Price, Ross, or Pratt rated highly, or Bates, Burrow, and Boys low, THAT would be a joke.

I mean, who do you think is out of line?

[Luvnit2]

(10-05-2020, 10:34 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No he’s not. He’s the 15th highest paid RT in the league.


That grade is absolutely unacceptable when you’re taking about protecting a franchise QB. Idc how good he run blocks. We desperately need an upgrade.

Please show me the 14 VETERAN RT's paid less than Hart. Either way, he is in the middle of the pack for starting RT's once you factor in those on rookie contracts who make less than vets

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-06-2020, 01:25 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Please show me the 14 VETERAN RT's paid less than Hart. Either way, he is in the middle of the pack for starting RT's once you factor in those on rookie contracts who make less than vets

He makes way too much relative to his level of play. You suggested we’re somehow getting a good deal on him. We’re not. He’s not even close to the 15th best RT in the league when you factor in his pass pro. Everyone knew that was a bad contract the minute they gave it to him.

[Yogo]

Just some quick observations here.

1) Bates has been in great position for pass and run plays, good reaction being Johnny on the spot, but his short arms really limits his tackling and wrapping up especially vs Cleveland. He really needs to work on his tackling then he will be elite.
2) A lot of elite pass rushers have been lining up over Hart rather than Williams. Elite pass rushers take their chances over RTs rather than LTs these days. Think that's going to explain why Hart's PFF is low pass blocking. I know Jonah wants to be LT, but I think we need to draft a longer armed LT and move Jonah to RT next year.

Just my 2 cents.

[leonardfan40]

(10-05-2020, 05:35 PM)McC Wrote: To be fair to the Jungle board experts, a pass pro grade of 53 isn't that far from crap.

Didn’t the announcers say he led the league with 15 pressures coming into this week? I’d say the posters are fair to bash that regardless of what PFF says

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-05-2020, 04:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Jonah Williams - 70.1 (75.2 pass, 55.8 run)
Michael Jordan - 54.3 (47.3 pass, 56.0 run)
Trey Hopkins - 60.3 (77.0 pass, 53.1 run)
Alex Redmond - 54.6 (47.4 pass, 55.9 run)
Bobby Hart - 67.3 (53.9 pass, 80.0 run)

XSF - 75.5 (62.5 pass, 75.2 run) - Will he take a starting spot from Jordan or Redmond once he's back? I'd like to think so.

Right now, you would think he would replace Jordan, who has been our worst lineman all season.  I think Redmond got screwed on that holding call and I wonder how much that hurt his grade because he was really moving people in the running game.  To be fair, Jordan competed against a lot tougher players than Redmond thus far.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-05-2020, 06:44 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: FWIW, grades for the rest thru 4 games:

Offense:
QB: Burrow 79.9.
RB: Mixon 67.7; Bernard 64.4.
WR: Boyd 85.6, Higgins 65.8, Green 59.6; Tate 73.5, Thomas 66.1, Erickson 50.6, Ross 48.2.
TE: Uzomah 61.9; Sample 70.2, Carter 67.0.
OT: J. Williams 70.1, Hart 67.3
OG: XSF 75.5, Jordan 54.3, Redmond 54.6; Johnson 49.2, Price 38.8.
C: Hopkins 60.3

I think if Redmond had played vs better DLs (SD, CLE, PHI), he would be lower than Jordan.

Defense:
DE: Hubbard 61.6, Dunlap 55.4; Lawson 70.5, Bledsoe 68.1, Kareem 59.5.
DT: Reader 71.3, Daniels 50.1; Covington 60.2, A. Brown 46.1; Akinmoladun 62.5.
LB: Bynes 51.2, Pratt 44.1; L. Wilson 44.9, ADG 30.1, Evans 44.0.
CB: WJ3 67.5, Alexander 64.1, Phillips 57.5, Sims 59.9.
S: Bates 87.2, Bell 58.7; S. Williams 56.8.

This week, we could see Geno, Alexander, and L. Wilson return. And XSF is eligible to come off IR, though I think it may be a week or two more.

Thanks for sharing.  

There was a recent interview on the Pat McAfee show with a LB that played for the Patriots (I forget who it was) but McAfee was touting PFF because he said they had him ranked as the #1 all-time punter in the NFL.  His guest LB from the Pats, who was now retired, said the PFF scores always rated him low but that they didn't know his assignments so he never cared.

I can't believe those pathetic scores for the LBs.  Especially Pratt.  That guy has exceptional range and even if he doesn't make the tackle every single time, he often slows the ball carrier, or turns him back inside and the play gets stopped.   I am also surprised to see those scores for our CBs as Alexander has been an absolute stud in what is probably the toughest position on the field.  And he is doing it with very little pass rush.

Which brings me to this point:  The defense has been largely awful overall.   They played better against the Jags, after a solid effort against the Eagles.  Those are two offenses that could put up (and have) a lot of points, but the defense largely minimized the passing game each week.  I think by design they are giving up more rushing yards and avoiding big plays down the field.  Other than one bomb to OBJ, there really haven't been a lot of big plays through the air.  But there have been a TON of 10 yard runs.  Death by papercuts.  

If the offense continues to roll (and at some point, they need to start reducing targets to Green), and they can get a lead, that will play more in to the defenses strength.  The pass rush could make such an impact if they could pick up their game.  I am hoping Atkins has an impact there, but I am not holding my breath.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-05-2020, 05:34 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This is cumulative grade, not just the Jags game.

Can you share just the Jag's game?  I used to love Truck's weekly report. 

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 09:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Can you share just the Jag's game?  I used to love Truck's weekly report. 

The individual games are for the top-tier paid subscription only, of which I do not have.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-06-2020, 09:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Right now, you would think he would replace Jordan, who has been our worst lineman all season.  I think Redmond got screwed on that holding call and I wonder how much that hurt his grade because he was really moving people in the running game.  To be fair, Jordan competed against a lot tougher players than Redmond thus far.  

Price has been far worse than Jordan. Unless you meant just out of the starters.