Gotta Keep Building through FA

[McC]

(10-05-2020, 11:30 PM)Wire22Wire Wrote: We have far to many holes on Oline and defense to build through the draft.

What are you taking about?

Are you seriously advocating for spending multiple years w burrow at qb hoping to stack a few great drafts to compete?

They need to buy an oline and a deep threat.  Then they can check more boxes off in the draft

Damn.  I used italics and everything.  It's pretty clear what I'm talking about.  It was right there in what I said.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-05-2020, 11:22 PM)McC Wrote: What I should have said was the next time a franchise builds a championship team through FA will be the first. 

Just to be clear, my position is a team should build through both.  I don't think anyone would argue that you can build through free agency alone.

The draft is always of extreme importance.  Especially now, with the value of a rookie deals.  I wouldn't argue that, and I don't think OP is either.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if you have money available to improve your team through Free Agency then you should use it.  Not at the complete expense of the future, but also not to just let it sit unused either.

If we go out and draft so well that we have no money left to spend on outside players then that's one thing.  But that's not currently the case.  We're projected to have a pretty significant amount of space.  And we'll have an even greater amount if we choose to move on from a guys that aren't close to earning their contracts.

If there's money available, then why not be agressive again?

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-05-2020, 11:46 PM)McC Wrote: Damn.  I used italics and everything.  It's pretty clear what I'm talking about.  It was right there in what I said.

I'm not sure what the italics are emphasizing.  They don't appear to refect what OP is calling for.

Just because he used the word "building" that does not mean building alone through free agency.  It just means FA is part of the building process.

If someone says, we gotta keep building this deck for this house this week, that doesn't mean they're calling for negelcting building the foundation or the framing.

And his response is 100% accurate.  If you think you can fix this OL in a single draft then you're nuts.  It will take multiple drafts, and multiple years to bring it up an acceptable level.  Hell, look at Jonah Williams.  He's a top 12 pick, and he's probably slightly below average right now.

Unless you want to just throw away years 2 and 3 with Joe Burrow, and wait for the draft process to pay potential dividends, then you have to believe we need to add some missing pieces in FA.

And not for nothing, teams who draft poorly need to rely on FA more than others.  Considering we've drafted terrrible as of late, and have the smallest scouting department in the league, I wouldn't put a ton of faith in our front office to build out winner, without securing proven talent from time to time. If any team could benefit from more outside help it's us.

[McC]

(10-06-2020, 12:05 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not sure what the italics are emphasizing.  They don't appear to refect what OP is calling for.

Just because he used the word "building" that does not mean building alone through free agency.  It just means FA is part of the building process.

If someone says, we gotta keep building this deck for this house this week, that doesn't mean they're calling for negelcting building the foundation or the framing.

And his response is 100% accurate.  If you think you can fix this OL in a single draft then you're nuts.  It will take multiple drafts, and multiple years to bring it up an acceptable level.  Hell, look at Jonah Williams.  He's a top 12 pick, and he's probably slightly below average right now.

Unless you want to just throw away years 2 and 3 with Joe Burrow, and wait for the draft process to pay potential dividends, then you have to believe we need to add some missing pieces in FA.

And not for nothing, teams who draft poorly need to rely on FA more than others.  Considering we've drafted terrrible as of late, and have the smallest scouting department in the league, I wouldn't put a ton of faith in our front office to build out winner, without securing proven talent from time to time.  If any team could benefit from more outside help it's us.

Sign a RG or RT, or both, draft one or both.  Boom, line fixed in one offseason.  Multiple years?  Are you loco? 

You can finish off a team through FA but you can't build it that way.  How the **** is that not crystal clear?

[McC]

(10-05-2020, 11:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just to be clear, my position is a team should build through both.  I don't think anyone would argue that you can build through free agency alone.

The draft is always of extreme importance.  Especially now, with the value of a rookie deals.  I wouldn't argue that, and I don't think OP is either.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if you have money available to improve your team through Free Agency then you should use it.  Not at the complete expense of the future, but also not to just let it sit unused either.

If we go out and draft so well that we have no money left to spend on outside players then that's one thing.  But that's not currently the case.  We're projected to have a pretty significant amount of space.  And we'll have an even greater amount if we choose to move on from a guys that aren't close to earning their contracts.

If there's money available, then why not be agressive again?

That's exactly what he's arguing.  He said you use the draft to supplement, or words to that effect.

But having a lot of FA contracts is not sustainable.  If you've got too many of those hanging around your neck, then you struggle to keep your young veterans ready for a second deal.

FA can be every bit as risky as the draft, only with more money involved.

You gotta go somewhere between what they did last year and how Mike used to do it.

Sign a couple guys and that's all.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-06-2020, 12:35 AM)McC Wrote: Sign a RG or RT, or both, draft one or both.  Boom, line fixed in one offseason.  Multiple years?  Are you loco? 

You can finish off a team through FA but you can't build it that way.  How the **** is that not crystal clear?

I said you can't fix the OL in a single draft.  That would take multiple years. I'm arguing you have to do both. 

I'm not sure where the disconnect is, but you appear to be in agreement now, that we would need use FA, in addition to the draft, to fix it in a single year.

Again, I have no clue where the confusion is.  No one is saying to only build through FA.  You're focusing on the word build, as if using it means it can only be done with a singular focus.

Just because OP wants to continue to build through FA does NOT mean he doesn't want to also build through the draft.  They're all part of one build.

How the **** is that not crystal clear?

[Wire22Wire]

(10-06-2020, 12:40 AM)McC Wrote: That's exactly what he's arguing.  He said you use the draft to supplement, or words to that effect.

But having a lot of FA contracts is not sustainable.  If you've got too many of those hanging around your neck, then you struggle to keep your young veterans ready for a second deal.

FA can be every bit as risky as the draft, only with more money involved.

You gotta go somewhere between what they did last year and how Mike used to do it.

Sign a couple guys and that's all.

You want them to continue doing it ‘how Mike used to do it’

Lolololololol.

I’m done. You’re obvious not an actual fan of this team, and you don’t want them to adapt and be better (than a league laughingstock)

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(10-05-2020, 09:39 PM)Wire22Wire Wrote: Instead of replying incorrectly multiple times w opinions and falsehoods.

Why don’t you do some quick research.  And thanks for teaching me about corporate finance, that was earth shattering.  Maybe you should pump the breaks on posting in this thread

‘The NFL and NFLPA reached an agreement late last week where the 2021 salary cap will have a floor of $175 million. The revenue loss will be spread out the next three years. If revenues are better than expected, the 2021 salary cap could be higher. This year's salary cap will remain at $198.2 million.Jul 29, 2020’

In the NBA (which did get 3/4ths of its season in), the owners agreed to keep the cap flat for 2021, in exchange for the olayers agreeing to take less in future years to offset the haircut the owners took this year and will take next.

I'd assume the NFL should be able to work something similar. Though a drop is likely unavoidable this year.

But it ain't rocket science. Just do give & take until it balances out.

[bengaloo]

I hope they focus primarily on the trenches this offseason no matter how much they spend. Both the draft and FA should go that direction. We have very good skill players and some young promising guys on D, but you really win in the trenches. We need 2 good G's, a RT, another pass rusher and better depth at DT. At least in my opinion.

[WVUHomer]

(10-06-2020, 12:54 AM)Wire22Wire Wrote: You want them to continue doing it ‘how Mike used to do it’

Lolololololol.  

I’m done. You’re obvious not an actual fan of this team, and you don’t want them to adapt and be better (than a league laughingstock)

He quite literally said an in-between of both MB and ZT FA methods. He literally agreed they need to use it but not extravagantly like you implied they should.

Quit your trolling with that "You're obvious not an actual fan" BS. I seen McC have actual debates about the betterment of the team instead of this childish stuff.

[McC]

(10-06-2020, 12:54 AM)Wire22Wire Wrote: You want them to continue doing it ‘how Mike used to do it’

Lolololololol.  

I’m done. You’re obvious not an actual fan of this team, and you don’t want them to adapt and be better (than a league laughingstock)

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?  I never said any such thing.  Now you're just starting to piss me off putting words in my mouth. I'm done with your sorry ass.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-05-2020, 11:30 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Its too early to say. We have some huge holes that will open up

WJ3, Mackensie Alexander, Leshaun Sims , Torry Mctyer, and Tony Brown (RFA) are all FA. Thats like all of our CBs other than Waynes and Phillips.

Could be major turn over at WR too which wouldn't be ideal for a young QB. AJ, Ross, Erickson, and Thomas will all be FA.

Add in those cuts and we are only 20mil under the projected cap and we have to replace all these guys...

It will be tough

WJ3 would be my priority for re-signing. The pass defense is actually good this year. WJ3 and Bates are the biggest contributors to that.
Lawson is worth extending too, but only to a point.

I would bet though that re-signing both of these guys would eat up the available cap the Bengals would have for outside FAs.
So cuts/trades/restructures might have to be made for this team to push for playoffs next year.

The Bengals need at least 1 upgrade on OL, and one could argue 1-2 more beyond that. They should be able to get 1-2 in the draft, but that'd be taking away from other positions. So addressing in FA might be needed.

Moving on from Atkins and Dunlap would free up ~$20 mill in cap space for 2021. $13.5 mill would be freed up for 2022.
To me, this year is big for both of them to justify keeping them at their contract amount.

[Wire22Wire]

(10-06-2020, 12:54 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I said you can't fix the OL in a single draft.  That would take multiple years. I'm arguing you have to do both. 

I'm not sure where the disconnect is, but you appear to be in agreement now, that we would need use FA, in addition to the draft, to fix it in a single year.

Again, I have no clue where the confusion is.  No one is saying to only build through FA.  You're focusing on the word build, as if using it means it can only be done with a singular focus.

Just because OP wants to continue to build through FA does NOT mean he doesn't want to also build through the draft.  They're all part of one build.

How the **** is that not crystal clear?

Yeah, he is just trolling. 

I said they need to 'keep building though FA' - and he disagreed, saying they need to build through the draft. 

It's an amusing, intentional lack of comprehension on his part.    I guess I could have meant we need to omit ourselves from the draft and forgo all our picks, and only do free agency.    Sorry for not laying it out for him that I do not endorse that plan, lol

Basically, he's just arguing to argue and being intentionally obtuse  

[sandwedge]

(10-06-2020, 12:54 AM)Wire22Wire Wrote: You want them to continue doing it ‘how Mike used to do it’

Lolololololol.  

I’m done. You’re obvious not an actual fan of this team, and you don’t want them to adapt and be better (than a league laughingstock)

The only funny thing is your childish behavior....

[*Synric*]

(10-06-2020, 10:54 AM)ochocincos Wrote: WJ3 would be my priority for re-signing. The pass defense is actually good this year. WJ3 and Bates are the biggest contributors to that.
Lawson is worth extending too, but only to a point.

I would bet though that re-signing both of these guys would eat up the available cap the Bengals would have for outside FAs.
So cuts/trades/restructures might have to be made for this team to push for playoffs next year.

The Bengals need at least 1 upgrade on OL, and one could argue 1-2 more beyond that. They should be able to get 1-2 in the draft, but that'd be taking away from other positions. So addressing in FA might be needed.

Moving on from Atkins and Dunlap would free up ~$20 mill in cap space for 2021. $13.5 mill would be freed up for 2022.
To me, this year is big for both of them to justify keeping them at their contract amount.

Harder said than done. The Bengals are a big "?" at defensive tackle because of the injuries and the 2021 FA defensive tackle market is scarce. Their best bet is to add one in the draft and keep Geno for at least another year.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 11:13 AM)Synric Wrote: Harder said than done. The Bengals are a big "?" at defensive tackle because of the injuries and the 2021 FA defensive tackle market is scarce. Their best bet is to add one in the draft and keep Geno for at least another year.

Right now he's been 0 factor.
He only accounted for 4.5 sacks, 4 TFL, and 10 QB Hits last season, his lowest of his career.

To your point, yes, the Bengals might have to go with a draft pick or a cheap FA, who might not be as productive as Atkins. But is Atkins' contract worth it? Or to put another way...if moving on from Atkins allows you to get Joe Thuney, which will make the team better overall? I'd argue Thuney.

[Hoofhearted]

(10-06-2020, 11:22 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Right now he's been 0 factor.
He only accounted for 4.5 sacks, 4 TFL, and 10 QB Hits last season, his lowest of his career.

To your point, yes, the Bengals might have to go with a draft pick or a cheap FA, who might not be as productive as Atkins. But is Atkins' contract worth it? Or to put another way...if moving on from Atkins allows you to get Joe Thuney, which will make the team better overall? I'd argue Thuney.

Yea, but he also carries a 5 million + dollar dead money. Do you see them eating that much dead money on top what they are already paying (10 mil)? 

[*Synric*]

(10-06-2020, 11:22 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Right now he's been 0 factor.
He only accounted for 4.5 sacks, 4 TFL, and 10 QB Hits last season, his lowest of his career.

To your point, yes, the Bengals might have to go with a draft pick or a cheap FA, who might not be as productive as Atkins. But is Atkins' contract worth it? Or to put another way...if moving on from Atkins allows you to get Joe Thuney, which will make the team better overall? I'd argue Thuney.

The free agency veteran offensive guard market looks slightly better than the defensive tackle but most of the free agents in the trenches on both side do not look promising outside of a few that will either resign eith their own teams or go for big money in a competitive market.

Next year will be a really weird offseason with the Cap dropping so I think people are jumping the gun. I believe the Bengals will use alot of their free cap try to lock up a few of their younger players like WJ3, Carl Lawson, and a Jessie Bates extention. I don't expect alot of money spent on outside free agents...Now 2022 yea that could likely be a bigger FA year.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 11:40 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yea, but he also carries a 5 million + dollar dead money. Do you see them eating that much dead money on top what they are already paying (10 mil)? 

I think they could given the alternative is paying Atkins $14.8 mill in 2021 and $16 mill in 2022.
So even with the $5 mill dead cap in 2021, the team would still save $9.8 mill. And then another $13.4 mill saved in 2022.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2020, 11:44 AM)Synric Wrote: The free agency veteran offensive guard market looks slightly better than the defensive tackle but most of the free agents in the trenches on both side do not look promising outside of a few that will either resign eith their own teams or go for big money in a competitive market.

Next year will be a really weird offseason with the Cap dropping so I think people are jumping the gun. I believe the Bengals will use alot of their free cap try to lock up a few of their younger players like WJ3, Carl Lawson, and a Jessie Bates extention. I don't expect alot of money spent on outside free agents...Now 2022 yea that could likely be a bigger FA year.

If the Bengals only put their cap toward re-signing internal guys and then look to address their weaknesses/gaps in the draft, fans might have to expect another season of likely not making the playoffs.

Even if WJ3 and Lawson are re-signed, there will still be at least 3 spots that need (big) improvement:
- At least one OL, preferably 2-3
- At least one pass rusher, preferably two
- A good run stopper at LB
- A field stretcher at WR

Will the Bengals be able to get all of those with one draft right out of the gate? I'd bet no.