Fire Everyone/Everyone is to Blame

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 10:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah right, we will be really competitive with zero players on their rookie contracts.

I have no clue what this is in reference to.  If you actually read my post, you'd clearly seeing that by "everyone" I meant the coaching staff and front office. 

I even outlined a 5 step process in jest.  Nowhere did I mention anything about getting rid of players.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 10:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And every team in the league that has a GM wins playoff games, right?

Simple answers for simple minds.

So let's just keep it as it is, Fred. 

Let's keep Mike/Katie/Troy running the ship, with Tobin leading the scouting department and having major influence on their draft and personnel. It's worked so well.

Because not every team with a GM wins playoff games, let's resign ourselves to this group and this way of doing things forever.

[impactplaya]

(10-13-2020, 10:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I just never saw the point of these "Who can be the biggest, most over the top whiner" competitions.

I understand the team is bad, but I just not into whining like some people.

I know some people call it "venting", but even "venting" should have some basis in reality.  Otherwise it just seems like squealing for attention instead of really talking about how to fix the team.

Want to.fix the team.?
Fire Duke Tobin and hire John.Dorsey.
Btw the Browns can thank.Dorsey in.some ways for that 4 and 1
Start this year

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 10:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I just never saw the point of these "Who can be the biggest, most over the top whiner" competitions.

I understand the team is bad, but I just not into whining like some people.

I know some people call it "venting", but even "venting" should have some basis in reality.  Otherwise it just seems like squealing for attention instead of really talking about how to fix the team.

I've never seen someone paint legitimate arguments as nothing more than whining (shocked you didn't use squeeling) more than you.

Many people consider what is being called for as both warranted and rational.  

Hiring a GM, beefing the scouting department, and bringing in a new head coach and staff are valid suggestions.  Not doing these things can definitely be criticized, without be done just for the sake of whining.

Edit: You did use "squeeling". Shocker.

[Sled21]

(10-13-2020, 10:53 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So let's just keep it as it is, Fred. 

Let's keep Mike/Katie/Troy running the ship, with Tobin leading the scouting department and having major influence on their draft and personnel. It's worked so well.

Because not every team with a GM wins playoff games, let's resign ourselves to this group and this way of doing things forever.

Not for nothing Wes, but if you didn't realize, Mike/Katie/Troy own the team. They are not going anywhere no matter how many times people on message boards say fire them. So yes, you better resign yourself to this group, or move on to another team, because the Browns are not selling the Bengals and this is THE group. The only way Mike/Katie/Troy are going anywhere is if the league makes them sell the Bengals. I just do not see that happening.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 10:58 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Want to.fix the team.?
Fire Duke Tobin and hire John.Dorsey.
Btw the Browns can thank.Dorsey in.some ways for that 4 and 1
Start this year

Fred is not interested in discussions about ways we can actually improve this franchise.  He's only interested in arguing over the internet. 

It's the fake lawyer in him.  He craves debate.  But he doesn't want to actually address real issues that plague this team.  Because that would cause him to agree with too many people, and that's not what he's here for.

Here's a little game anyone can play that is reading this. (Make a mental note to do this)  Try to find posts where Fred either agrees with the OP, the person he's replying to, or the overall premise or the collective.  Look for anything where it starts out with "agreed", or "exactly!" , or where he kind of falls in line with the majority in any given thread, or topic.

It's kind of like a Where's Waldo game.  You'll be looking for a real long time.

[*ochocincos*]

Fire everyone?

You think this is one of them actual NFL franchises?!

You know full well that the Bengals will only make one change at a time, if any.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing Wes, but if you didn't realize, Mike/Katie/Troy own the team. They are not going anywhere no matter how many times people on message boards say fire them. So yes, you better resign yourself to this group, or move on to another team, because the Browns are not selling the Bengals and this is THE group.

I'm talking about them removing themselves from running the team from a football decisions standpoint, not a business related one.

I'm not calling for them to sell the team, or to remove themselves from all decision making.

None of those three have any business making decisions on guys like Andrew Whitworth or Bobby Hart, which it's clear they do.  I don't want Katie/Troy to be leading the hiring process for our head coach.

What am I asking?  For them to run their franchise like the majority of owners in this league.  Run the business, and hire someone qualified to build the team.  It's as simple as that.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing Wes, but if you didn't realize, Mike/Katie/Troy own the team. They are not going anywhere no matter how many times people on message boards say fire them. So yes, you better resign yourself to this group, or move on to another team, because the Browns are not selling the Bengals and this is THE group.

No one ever thought we’d see a FA spending spree like we did this offseason either, but it happened. If things get bad enough (newsflash they already are) the family will be forced to make some major changes. I guarantee you ruining a QB with the potential of Joe Burrow would be the last straw for a lot of people. One simple act of hiring a real GM would buy them so much favor with this fan base. It’s honestly mind boggling they haven’t tried it yet. And it can’t be just about the money. What the hell would one more salary be to them? It’s pure stubbornness.

[Sled21]

(10-13-2020, 11:18 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm talking about them removing themselves from running the team from a football decisions standpoint, not a business related one.

I'm not calling for them to sell the team, or to remove themselves from all decision making.

None of those three have any business making decisions on guys like Andrew Whitworth or Bobby Hart, which it's clear they do.  I don't want Katie/Troy to be leading the hiring process for our head coach.

What am I asking?  For them to run their franchise like the majority of owners in this league.  Run the business, and hire someone qualified to build the team.  It's as simple as that.

But you know MB, so you know that is not going to happen. 

[impactplaya]

(10-13-2020, 11:11 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fred is not interested in discussions about ways we can actually improve this franchise.  He's only interested in arguing over the internet. 

It's the fake lawyer in him.  He craves debate.  But he doesn't want to actually address real issues that plague this team.  Because that would cause him to agree with too many people, and that's not what he's here for.

Here's a little game anyone can play that is reading this. (Make a mental note to do this)  Try to find posts where Fred either agrees with the OP, the person he's replying to, or the overall premise or the collective.  Look for anything where it starts out with "agreed", or "exactly!" , or where he kind of falls in line with the majority in any given thread, or topic.

It's kind of like a Where's Waldo game.  You'll be looking for a real long time.

Id bring John Dorsey in.as GM.
Then Id go.after Eric Bienemy.or Pete Carmichael as HC.
OC Id be intrested in.Todd Monken. 

Fire Zac Taylor. At that point Id see how Anarumo as progressed
As a DC. If the.defense hasnt shown signs of progress than
I look.at Dan Quinn to run the defense.

Increase the scouting department numbers.

Then.Id fire the strength coach. 

[GodFather]

(10-11-2020, 08:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: **** Zac Taylor, **** Duke Tobin, **** Jim Turner, **** Brian Callahan, **** Lou Aranumo, and most of all, **** anyone with the last name Brown or Blackburn.

You all suck, you all are terrible at your job, and the sooner you get the **** away from this team the sooner we actually try to be a legitimate franchise.  All of you should be embarrassed.  Piss off.

/endrant

How you feel when Zac and the rest of the coaching staff get an extension

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 11:37 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Id bring John Dorsey in.as GM.

John Dorsey would be an amazing hire.

I don't think people realize just how good his resume is.  He was with the Packers for 20 years, and his real reign there really started in 1997, when he took over as Director of Scouting, and later as Director of Football operations. This produced an incredibly impressive 13 years.

Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, AJ Hawk, Clay Matthews, Charles Woodson, ect.  His fingerprints all over that team. They made the playoffs at an atonishing rate during his tenure, and obvioulsy he's got a Superbowl Ring as well.

Then he goes to the Chiefs, where assumes the GM role.  Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, the foundation of their team, were all brought in under his watch.

Then he goes goes to the Browns.  Everywhere he else he had been they had won.  Well over .500.  This is where people question his resume, which I think is unfair.

The Browns had records of 3-13, 1-15, and 0-16 prior to him taking over.  That's got to be one of the worst 3 year stretches of any professional franchise.

He gets them 7-8-1 their very first season.  They go 6-10 in his 2nd season.  Now they're 4-1 the year after he left.  Now, no one can say these are great results on their own.  But when you considered what he inherited, I think most can admit that this was still an accomplishment.

Dorsey is just sitting out there for the taking.  Maybe there are better candidates out there, but I have to believe he could be a realistic option for a franchise like ours, given the circumstances.

I guarantee John Dorsey can build a better team than Katie and Troy Blackburn, so I don't know why anyone wouldn't be estatic with a hiring like this.

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2020, 10:50 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have no clue what this is in reference to.  If you actually read my post, you'd clearly seeing that by "everyone" I meant the coaching staff and front office. 

I even outlined a 5 step process in jest.  Nowhere did I mention anything about getting rid of players.

My apologies.  I did misread your post.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-13-2020, 11:22 AM)Sled21 Wrote: But you know MB, so you know that is not going to happen. 

I wouldn't be 100% sure about that.

I think one huge thing that could force their hand is the looming stadium lease renewal.  Negotiations are set to begin in 2024, and have to be worked by 2026.

They really need as much leverage as they can get going into this.  Even with the potential for a move, if terms don't work out favorably here, they still need to present their franchise in the best light.  The better they are, the more they can demand.  If they're downright terrible it's going to hurt them from a negotiation standpoint.

There's going to be hundreds of millions, if not billions, on the line in less than 4 short years.  It's in their best interest to build out a winner.

I also really want to believe that at some point Katie and Troy will be convinced they're better off bringing in someone else to run the team.  Be it reason, or shame, I have to believe this could be a possibility. 

They're not morons, so they have to know this isn't working out.  With money on the line, and with public pressure (ridicule) I'm hoping they finally see the light.  They can't be as stubborn as the old man is, can they?

I know, I know.  This is all wishful thinking at this point.  But I'll never give up.  It's just too obvious none of them are even remotely qualified to do this.  At some point they're going to admit that.  Right? Right???? (Fingers crossed)

[Murdock2420]

(10-13-2020, 11:37 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Id bring John Dorsey in.as GM.
Then Id go.after Eric Bienemy.or Pete Carmichael as HC.
OC Id be intrested in.Todd Monken. 

Fire Zac Taylor. At that point Id see how Anarumo as progressed
As a DC. If the.defense hasnt shown signs of progress than
I look.at Dan Quinn to run the defense.

Increase the scouting department numbers.

Then.Id fire the strength coach. 

I'd be happy if they started small and just did that.

I get it, Tobin is their boy and isn't leaving and that Katie and Mike want to show the world, "hey we know how to football.." but just hire a real scouting department so that we actually get a better return on our draft picks and find the right FAs and UDFA's.... it is sickening when you look around the league and see solid and good offensive lines with starters drafted in round 4, or 5 or 6 or even undrafted guys, the Bengals could spend 7 picks on the O-line and still only come away with 1 starter.

[impactplaya]

John Dorsey knows how to build a roster that can sustain success
For years. Duke Tobin couldnt tie his shoelaces or pull his chair out.
This would be a prime landing spot for Dorsey.
He wouldnt have the burden of bringing in a franchise QB.
His only sin in Cleveland was hiring Kitchens.
He knows talent. He knows how to work the free agent market

If the Browns stay with Tobin and Taylor then that says winning is
Not in.their best interests

[Wes Mantooth]

If people are wondering if this (GM + Scouts) is a money issue I thought I'd supply some numbers.

Note: These numbers are kind of hard to keep completely up to date, as they're not as public as coaching salaries. Consider this is to be "ballpark", just for the sake of discussion.

In 2016 the salary range listed across numerous sites for NFL GM's was 1-3 million dollars. At this time, John Elway was the highest paid GM at the 3 mil mark. Now, not all GM's are built the same. Some have more responsibilities, and some have bigger names and better resumes. So there's a lot that goes into determing their value.

I think it's a safe assumption salaries have increased. So I'm going to set the market at 1.5 to 4 mil for 2020.

Let's just assume we make a huge splash at we commit to paying a GM a 3 mil dollar salary.

The range for scouts appears to be between 50-150k, with those topping 80k being veterans with 10+ years of experience.

Let's assume we hire 10 scouts at an average of 100k. The total being 1 million dollars put into our scouting department.

Using the above estimate, we could add a legitimate, quality GM, along with 10 incredibly qualified scouts for a total of 4 million dollars per season.

To put that 4 million into perspective, we paid 7 million dollars to Antonio Brown who never even had a full practice. We're currently paying Bobby Hart 6.8 million dollars to suck ass. We're currently paying Gio Bernard 5 mil to carry the ball 2 times a game. And we're currently paying AJ Green 18 million dollars to be a washed up bum.

I think it's safe to say a legitimate front office could prevent some of the above overspending. Not to mention an improvement on the field means an improvement in revenues. Translation = They would pay for themselves.

And that 4 mil actually gets lowered when you subtract whatever we're currently paying Duke Tobin. There's a very good chance we could rebuild the entire front office, modernize it, and bring it up to standards for about an additional 3 million dollars.

It's crazy to argue against this. This teams operating expenses are well over 200 million dollars. You're talking about an investment that's around 1% of current total expenses.

Why would that not to do this? The only answer is stubborness. You can't use money as an excuse.

All told, they'd make more money as a result of being a better team, they'd lose less money on bad contracts, they'd increase their negotiating power for the stadium lease, and they most likely would bring up the overall value of their franchise if they ever were to sell it.

No brainer...

[Sled21]

I'm not sure I buy into the scouts argument. We had an amazing Free Agency this year (the fact they got hurt doesn't apply, no scout in the world can predict injury) and we knocked it out of the park with the draft. How was a bigger scouting dept. going to help this years draft? As for the hits and missed. players like Price were highly rated across the teams, some times they just don't translate. Now, I'm not saying expanding the scouting department is a bad thing, I just don't really believe it will fix anything either.

[JSR18]

(10-12-2020, 03:07 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: Somebody. Fire Turner Then bring Cordy Glenn back
If Turner was the reason he left.

Was Turner the coach that Glenn had pinned to a wall??

If so, I take back every mean, terrible thing I ever said about Glenn...

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