What Joe can do to help himself

[Bengalholic]

The reality is that this line is just bad and that it's probably not going to get much better any time soon, with the interior of this line is especially bad. The pressures are going to continue, but Joe can do his part in helping cut down the sacks.

I realize he's a rookie and he's still learning every week, but there are times he holds onto the ball way too long in attempts to make something happen, even when being swarmed by pressure. Gutsy and admiral, but given how bad our receivers are at creating separation...it's probably better to just throw it away on most of those occasions, avoiding the sack, possible interception or even fumbling because he's getting chased / hit from behind while trying to extend a play or create something out of nothing. 

This line and receiving corps is not really set up to be successful with plays that take time to develop. Joe has to be willing to check down more often as well. He has said himself he needs to be better at taking what's there, and I couldn't agree more. Overall, I think Joe has done a helluva good job, given his situation and circumstances around him. While I don't want to necessarily take away his natural inclination to be creative and never give up on a play, I do want him to realize he may need to reign that in a bit for now and it's OK to just throw it away and move onto the next one if the play isn't there.

[Yojimbo]

Audible to more quick passes and screens. Maybe I’ve missed it but when is the last time we ran a WR bubble screen or a TE screen? Those are staples of a lot of the good offenses in the NFL.

[Sigfox77]

(10-14-2020, 01:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Audible to more quick passes and screens. Maybe I’ve missed it but when is the last time we ran a WR bubble screen or a TE screen? Those are staples of a lot of the good offenses in the NFL.

I was thinking what could help him the most is having our OC call more plays that emphasize drags, slants, quick outs. Steelers really seem to do a nice job with this type of gameplan and then take shots down field selectively. 

[BrownAssClown]

Joe's going to have to get rid of the ball faster, he's not at LSU any more. Andy Dalton had one of the fastest releases while he was here because of the line in front of him. Joe can scramble better than Andy and if it wasn't for that the sack total would be much higher. I don't blame Joe for trying to extend plays because he is a competitor but he needs to learn when to get rid of it and not force plays when they are not there.

[Whatever]

(10-14-2020, 01:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Audible to more quick passes and screens. Maybe I’ve missed it but when is the last time we ran a WR bubble screen or a TE screen? Those are staples of a lot of the good offenses in the NFL.

We've run several tunnel screens to Thomas and at least one TE screen to Sample, though CJ was our best screen threat.  Thing about WR screens is that they are only really effective if you have WR's who demand a lot of cushion and/or can make guys miss in the open field and we unfortunately don't.

[Bengalholic]

(10-14-2020, 01:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Audible to more quick passes and screens. Maybe I’ve missed it but when is the last time we ran a WR bubble screen or a TE screen? Those are staples of a lot of the good offenses in the NFL.

The 22 sacks given up so far is the most ever by a Bengals team through 5 games, so there's a lot going wrong right now. It's a combination of a bad o-line, receivers that really struggle to create separation, poor play design at times and some of it is Burrow being a rookie and making rookie mistakes. 

The o-line isn't going to get much better. The receivers aren't going to get any quicker/faster. It's really on Zac at this point to develop game plans that account for those things on a regular basis, and for Joe to make better decisions when things break down.

[Gdale_Bengal]

Burrow needs the not try to be a hero every play. If it’s not there after he escapes the pocket just throw it away whether it’s first it 3rd down.

[J24]

More throws on early downs so we could get into third and short more often .

[fredtoast]

(10-14-2020, 02:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's a combination of a bad o-line, receivers that really struggle to create separation, poor play design at times and some of it is Burrow being a rookie and making rookie mistakes. 

I honestly think we have receivers that can get open.  To me the biggest problems are poor O-line play and poor play design.  And even a lot of the poor O-line play seems to be coaching.  they get beta more by stunts and blitzes than just getting over powered.

Dalton did not look bad in 2018, but he was total shit last year.  I don't think he forgot how to play QB in just one offseason.  I think the schemes in our passing game just don't work to get receivers open.  Joe doe need to get rid of the ball quicker to avoid sacks, but we can't move the ball if he has to throw the ball away all the time.

Finally I have to admit that I thought this thread might be about Joe "Chewing ass and holding people accountable".  So far he seems to have earned the respect to be a leader.  I believe that is done through example instead of pitching fits.

And it is impressive that despite all the pressure he still is not throwing a lot of interceptions.  That is what a lot of rookies do, and that is MUCH worse than taking too many sacks.

[*michaelsean*]

Probably recognize where people are going to come from which is film study and experience I would imagine. Sometimes there is going to be an unblocked person coming from the outside. You have to know what you are going to do with the ball if that guy comes. I imagine it’s also calling the right protections. Move the TE. Move the RB. Roll the protection right or left.

These observations are from someone with zero knowledge about the QB position so please don’t forward my suggestions to Joe.

[Bengalholic]

(10-14-2020, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I honestly think we have receivers that can get open.  To me the biggest problems are poor O-line play and poor play design.  And even a lot of the poor O-line play seems to be coaching.  they get beta more by stunts and blitzes than just getting over powered.

Dalton did not look bad in 2018, but he was total shit last year.  I don't think he forgot how to play QB in just one offseason.  I think the schemes in our passing game just don't work to get receivers open.  Joe doe need to get rid of the ball quicker to avoid sacks, but we can't move the ball if he has to throw the ball away all the time.

Finally I have to admit that I thought this thread might be about Joe "Chewing ass and holding people accountable".  So far he seems to have earned the respect to be a leader.  I believe that is done through example instead of pitching fits.

And it is impressive that despite all the pressure he still is not throwing a lot of interceptions.  That is what a lot of rookies do, and that is MUCH worse than taking too many sacks.

With the o-line, it may be indeed be poor coaching and problems with the scheme that's playin a big part, but when you go back and re-watch games...there's no getting around the fact that these linemen get pushed around and beaten off the snap way too often. I don't think it's a stretch to say this group, overall, just isn't very talented and they don't have the greatest awareness when it comes to navigating their areas in zone or winning their matchups in man. 

As for Joe, I think he has the makings of an elite QB. Unfortunately, there are some very real limitations to the offensive unit this year and I think he has to make better decisions when things go wrong. It's also up to Zac and Brian to help him out and put him in better situations to be successful as well. Having a more consistent running attack would do wonders for Joe as well.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-14-2020, 02:38 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: With the o-line, it may be indeed be poor coaching and problems with the scheme, but when you go back and re-watch games...there's no getting around the fact that these linemen get pushed around and beaten off the snap way too often. I don't think it's a stretch to say this group, overall, just isn't very talented and they don't have the greatest awareness when it comes to navigating their areas in zone or winning their matchups in man. 

As for Joe, I think he has the makings of an elite QB. Unfortunately, their are some very limitations to the offensive unit this year and I think has to make better decisions within those circumstances. It's up to Zac and Brian to help him out and put him in better situations to be successful as well. Having a more consistent running attack would do wonders for Joe as well.

In a five year span they drafted linemen with three firsts and one second. Maybe Joe should demand they hire someone who knows what he’s doing.

[kevin]

(10-14-2020, 01:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The reality is that this line is just bad and that it's probably not going to get much better any time soon, with the interior of this line is especially bad. The pressures are going to continue, but Joe can do his part in helping cut down the sacks.

I realize he's a rookie and he's still learning every week, but there are times he holds onto the ball way too long in attempts to make something happen, even when being swarmed by pressure. Gutsy and admiral, but given how bad our receivers are at creating separation...it's probably better to just throw it away on most of those occasions, avoiding the sack, possible interception or even fumbling because he's getting chased / hit from behind while trying to extend a play or create something out of nothing. 

This line and receiving corps is not really set up to be successful with plays that take time to develop. Joe has to be willing to check down more often as well. He has said himself he needs to be better at taking what's there, and I couldn't agree more. Overall, I think Joe has done a helluva good job, given his situation and circumstances around him. While I don't want to necessarily take away his natural inclination to be creative and never give up on a play, I do want him to realize he may need to reign that in a bit for now and it's OK to just throw it away and move onto the next one if the play isn't there.

What can Joe do ?   NOTHING.   If the Blocking does not improve,  there is nothing the QB can do.   UNLESS do as Fitzpatrick behind awful Bengals 2008 line.  After the got Carson killed,  Fitzpatrick knew there would be no blocking, so he just took off running as soon as ball was snapped.  He wasn't trying to pass, or win, he was just trying to live through season. So like Forrest Gump, He Just Ran For His Life as soon as he got the ball.  Turns out Fitzpatrick was a good quarterback,  so neither Carson or Fitzpatrick could do anything behind the awful 2008 line.  Neither Dalton or Burrow able to do anything behind the Bengals 2017 to 2020 line until it improves. 

You have to have Blocking or none of the X's and O's of the playbook work.  After 52 years of watching Bengals and seeing some great Blocking years, but also some of the worst Blocking years in the history of NFL,  you learn that none of the plays work if the O Line stinks. 

I laugh, because I remember a tackle football pick-up game. This guy who was a starting high school quarterback would call out these plays in huddle. He got killed on every play. He never got to run the play he called. He quit and left because it wasn't like his high school team. I had played some organized football too, and I knew that without practices, there can be no blocking. So as QB, I just looked for where the biggest D guys were, and when ball snapped I rolled out like Ken Anderson as fast as I could go away from them, and hit the first person I saw open. There are no plays in pick-up football of no blocking, and darn few plays of Bengals football of no blocking. This is when Football turns into Rugby, you just run for your life like Fitzpatrick in 2008, and he lived to see better days on other teams.

[Bengalholic]

(10-14-2020, 02:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: In a five year span they drafted linemen with three firsts and one second. Maybe Joe should demand they hire someone who knows what he’s doing.

Yeah, and 3 of the 4 were complete duds. Was that just incredibly bad luck or terrible player evaluation? 

[Bengalholic]

(10-14-2020, 02:43 PM)kevin Wrote: What can Joe do ?   NOTHING.   If the Blocking does not improve,  there is nothing the QB can do.   UNLESS do as Fitzpatrick behind awful Bengals 2008 line.  After the got Carson killed,  Fitzpatrick knew there would be no blocking, so he just took off running as soon as ball was snapped.  He wasn't trying to pass, or win, he was just trying to live through season. So like Forrest Gump, He Just Ran For His Life as soon as he got the ball.  Turns out Fitzpatrick was a good quarterback,  so neither Carson or Fitzpatrick could do anything behind the awful 2008 line.  Neither Dalton or Burrow able to do anything behind the Bengals 2017 to 2020 line until it improves. 

You have to have Blocking or none of the X's and O's of the playbook work.  After 52 years of watching Bengals and seeing some great Blocking years, but also some of the worst Blocking years in the history of NFL,  you learn that none of the plays work if the O Line stinks. 

Joe has talked often about what he can / needs to do better, so 'nothing' isn't really accurate. 

Yes, the constant pressure makes things more difficult for sure...but there are things Joe can do on his end as well, even in the midst of the pressure. Not sure why anyone would disagree with that?

[Yojimbo]

(10-14-2020, 01:53 PM)Sigfox77 Wrote: I was thinking what could help him the most is having our OC call more plays that emphasize drags, slants, quick outs. Steelers really seem to do a nice job with this type of gameplan and then take shots down field selectively. 

(10-14-2020, 02:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The 22 sacks given up so far is the most ever by a Bengals team through 5 games, so there's a lot going wrong right now. It's a combination of a bad o-line, receivers that really struggle to create separation, poor play design at times and some of it is Burrow being a rookie and making rookie mistakes. 

The o-line isn't going to get much better. The receivers aren't going to get any quicker/faster. It's really on Zac at this point to develop game plans that account for those things on a regular basis, and for Joe to make better decisions when things break down.

Since the thread is about what he can do for himself, I didn’t include any of the things the team can do for him. Just something he could do for himself. He has the authority to audible at the line, I think he needs to use it more.

[Yojimbo]

(10-14-2020, 02:07 PM)Whatever Wrote: We've run several tunnel screens to Thomas and at least one TE screen to Sample, though CJ was our best screen threat.  Thing about WR screens is that they are only really effective if you have WR's who demand a lot of cushion and/or can make guys miss in the open field and we unfortunately don't.

I think Boyd, Higgins and Erickson are probably our best at doing that.

[*Nately120*]

(10-14-2020, 02:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: In a five year span they drafted linemen with three firsts and one second. Maybe Joe should demand they hire someone who knows what he’s doing.

Throwing demands at MB has worked pretty well for players so far!  Do it, Joe!  

[Au165]

Every run out of shotgun, and maybe even singleback, should have a built in RPO. Before anyone reacts to him running, no I don't mean a QB running option. RPO as it is in todays game is a run pass option with the running element being the back (although the QB could keep and run in some situations) or pull it and throw. If they are twins to the backside it should be an inside out bubble screen or a backside slant that goes right behind the linebacker biting on the run. If singled up to the wide side it should be a two way alert option (off coverage smoke, press coverage go).

This is essentially what Philly ran with Nick Foles in the Super Bowl run and what it allows you to do is give Burrow a chance on every play, run calls included, to make a good read which he excels at. The advantage in the running game is it holds the downhill attack by the linebackers which should help out an offensive line that is struggling with blitzers. Mixon by design would only be getting the ball on weaker box counts so he would see more production in his game.

This is a staple of the new age spread offense and I think it's time we full on embrace it. Joe Burrow should not be in a run play situation that he can't pull and throw it quickly...ever. Some may ask "Yea, but how does this help us down the field?", which is actually a great question! What happens if every hand off has a quick RPO option to it, when you do go "real" play action guys jump the assumed RPO option and instead you have your guys going deep. Because of the constant RPO action the D line has to play run rather than tee'ing off heavily on the pass rush.

[*Synric*]

Simply the Bengals need to block better....

The lack of consistency or even threat of the ground game is dictating how defenses are playing the Bengals. Until the Bengals can run the ball consistently the playbook will be hampered, they will be behind the sticks, and Burrow will be underpressure.