Brian Flores vs. Zac Taylor

[Wes Mantooth]

What They Inherited

Brian Flores
 
--- 7-9 year prior to taking job

--- GM Chris Grier made the following trades during the year:  Ryan Tannenhill (Starting QB), Laremy Tunsil (LT, Best OL), Minkah Fitzpatrick (1st round pick from '18), Kenyan Drake (Starting RB), 2nd round pick ('19), and a 4th round pick ('19)

--- QB - Ryan Fitzpatrick/Josh Rosen

--- Weapons - Mark Walton, Devante Parker

Zac Taylor

--- 6-10 year prior to taking the job

--- Lost AJ Green (WR1) and Jonah Williams (1st round pick from '19) to injury in preseason.

--- QB - Andy Dalton

--- Weapons - Joe Mixon, Tyler Boyd

2019 - First Year

Brian Flores

--- 5-11 Overall Record

--- Started 0-7.

--- Went 5-4 over last 9 games.

--- Won head-to-head matchup vs. Zac Taylor

Zac Taylor

--- 2-14 Overall Record

--- Started 0-11

--- Went 2-3 over last 5 games.

--- Lost head-to-head matchup vs Brian Flores

2020 - Second Year

Brian Flores

--- 3-3 Current Record

--- Beaten the Jags (by 18), the 49'ers (by 26), and the Jets (by 24).

--- Lost to the Patriots, the Bills, and the Seahawks.

--- Key Players: Ryan Fitzpatrick, Myles Gaskin, Devante Parker, Mike Gesicki, Preston Williams

Zac Taylor

--- 1-4-1 Current Record

--- Beaten the Jags (by 8)

--- Lost to the Chargers, the Browns, the Ravens, the Colts.  Tie the Eagles

--- Key Players: Joe Burrow, Joe Mixon, AJ Green, Tyler Boyd, Tee Higgins

Conclusion (???)

This is where you come in, and where the discussion starts.

Who do you think inherited a better roster for 2019?  Who do you think did a better job in 2019?  Who do you think has more to work with in 2020?  Who do you think is a better coach?  etc, etc, etc.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

You've omitted one of your own standing arguments around here. ZT has the dead weight of Green/Atkins/Dunlap holding him back, Flores doesn't. And that's because the Dolphins front office did him a favor by converting that dead weight into draft capital and cap space, which our front office didn't do (granted it was likely because ZT pleaded to them not to do that). But still, until ZT is free of that ball and chain, I'm not sure the comparison is valid.

[GreenCornBengal]

I’m not sure we need comparisons anymore. The guy is a bad coach. I don’t need any more proof of his incompetency.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-19-2020, 11:55 AM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: You've omitted one of your own standing arguments around here. ZT has the dead weight of Green/Atkins/Dunlap holding him back, Flores doesn't. And that's because the Dolphins front office did him a favor by converting that dead weight into draft capital and cap space, which our front office didn't do (granted it was likely because ZT pleaded to them not to do that). But still, until ZT is free of that ball and chain, I'm not sure the comparison is valid.

I mean, of course the comparison is valid.  It's one coach vs. another, both of who are in their 2nd seasons. 

Even knowing what you've said (one team unloaded a lot of players), you're still left with relatively easy questions:

-Who had more to work with last year?

-Who has more to work with this year?

-Who has done a better job with what they've been given?

Look at each roster from top to bottom, and feel free to give an honest opinion.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-19-2020, 11:57 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’m not sure we need comparisons anymore. The guy is a bad coach. I don’t need any more proof of his incompetency.

Fair enough.

I'm pretty impressed with the job Brian Flores has done though.  I think it speaks to what "growing" actually looks like, and how quickly a quality coach can build a decent team out of seemingly very little.

This guy was working with jack squat last season, and still has one of the worst rosters in the entire NFL.  Yet he's 8-7 over his last 15 games.

I think his performance is proof that many of the excuses made for Zac Taylor are complete and utter bs.  There's simply no excuse for going 3-18-1 with what he's had to work with.  None.

[GreenCornBengal]

(10-19-2020, 12:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fair enough.

I'm pretty impressed with the job Brian Flores has done though.  I think it speaks to what "growing" actually looks like, and how quickly a quality coach can build a decent team out of seemingly very little.

This guy was working with jack squat last season, and still has one of the worst rosters in the entire NFL.  Yet he's 8-7 over his last 15 games.

I think his performance is proof that many of the excuses made for Zac Taylor are complete and utter bs.  There's simply no excuse for going 3-18-1 with what he's had to work with.  None.

You’re spot on. You could see Miami morphing into a better team at the end of last year. They became much more competitive as the season went on.

As someone eluded to, they did the rebuild right. They traded away all that they could for as much draft capital as possible. They voided most of their big contracts that wouldn’t help them as well. They also are letting Tua sit and learn, which I feel is another good decision. I expect them to take another big leap next year.

[Yojimbo]

You can see the Dolphins did the right thing when you go into rebuild mode with a new coach. Get rid of old guys and big contracts from the previous regime. You can't build for the future with one foot in the past. Last year and this past offseason should have seen Green, Dunap, Atkins, S. Williams, Ross and probably Gio, released or traded. give the new coach a fresh roster, cap space and draft capital.

I think its better for the relationship with the fanbase if the FO is honest with them when they go into a rebuild. Our FO has been saying all along there is no rebuild and we expect to compete right now, which leads to disgruntled fans when you can't compete right now.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(10-19-2020, 12:00 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, of course the comparison is valid.  It's one coach vs. another, both of who are in their 2nd seasons. 

Even knowing what you've said (one team unloaded a lot of players), you're still left with relatively easy questions:

-Who had more to work with last year?

-Who has more to work with this year?

-Who has done a better job with what they've been given?

Look at each roster from top to bottom, and feel free to give an honest opinion.

Actually I think it's somewhere between even and an apples/oranges comparison given cap space, youth, etc. I mean there's 30 other head coaches out there too, you've cherry picked one good coach to compare ZT to. We gonna compare him to Bill O'brien or Adam Gase too? 

But by your own logic, if we beat Miami later this year you'll retract this post and suddenly support Taylor, right? 

Incidentally, I didn't like the ZT hire when we made it and I know he makes some bad decisions, as all coaches do. I'm not defending him so much as I am explaining the logic of giving him a third year. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-19-2020, 12:12 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Actually I think it's somewhere between even and an apples/oranges comparison given cap space, youth, etc. I mean there's 30 other head coaches out there too, you've cherry picked one good coach to compare ZT to. We gonna compare him to Bill O'brien or Adam Gase too? 

Are the other 30 coaches all in the 2nd year too?

Look, you've got two coaches who took over at the same time.  One inherited a 7 win team, one inherited a 6 win team.  That's about as close a comparison you're ever going to find.

And, if anything, the fact the Dolphins went into full rebuild mode should make early success more difficult for Flores. 

I'm serious, please take a couple of seconds look at his current roster.  Look at last year's too.  This guy is winning ball games with a whole lot less to work with.

You can speak about holding on to vet deals all you'd like.  The fact of the  matter is, the Dolphins are building for the future not immediate success. (They have a ton of picks and cap space) Their current roster stinks.  Yet they're doing quite well.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(10-19-2020, 12:11 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: You can see the Dolphins did the right thing when you go into rebuild mode with a new coach. Get rid of old guys and big contracts from the previous regime. You can't build for the future with one foot in the past. Last year and this past offseason should have seen Green, Dunap, Atkins, S. Williams, Ross and probably Gio, released or traded. give the new coach a fresh roster, cap space and draft capital.

I think its better for the relationship with the fanbase if the FO is honest with them when they go into a rebuild. Our FO has been saying all along there is no rebuild and we expect to compete right now, which leads to disgruntled fans when you can't compete right now.

Well said. The front office thought we had the roster to compete right away, and rumor has it that's why we went with Taylor. I think they'll now see the folly in that. We correct that mistake this offseason, and then get on the track Flores is on, just behind him slightly. That's my hope, anyway. 

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(10-19-2020, 12:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Are the other 30 coaches all in the 2nd year too?

Look, you've got two coaches who took over at the same time.  One inherited a 7 win team, one inherited a 6 win team.  That's about as close a comparison you're ever going to find.

And, if anything, the fact the Dolphins went into full rebuild mode should make early success more difficult for Flores. 

I'm serious, please take a couple of seconds look at his current roster.  Look at last year's too.  This guy is winning ball games with a whole lot less to work with.

You can speak about holding on to vet deals all you'd like.  The fact of the  matter is, the Dolphins are building for the future not immediate success. (They have a ton of picks and cap space) Their current roster stinks.  Yet they're doing quite well.

See my reply to Yojimbo above for why I think the whole comparison is a pointless exercise.

I'm not sure how else I can say it. It's like both teams are on a 2 step back, 3 step forward trajectory. But we're still on our second step back, and because they essentially started earlier (because of how management handled things, not because of the relative experience of their coach), they're on their first step forward. 

I know the Dolphin's roster well enough. They're not as talentless as you say (you can't count Green/Atkins/Dunlap as talent for us if you also think we should've ditched them). But even so, the logical end point of your argument should be that 31 teams should fire their head coach at the end of the year. I mean if you can find a better coach out there yours obviously sucks, right? Believe me I'd rather have Flores, but we don't, so we take our two steps back and then start all over again? And besides, right now they've won exactly 1.5 games more than we have (including one against the Jets which barely counts) and the game last year was about as close as a game can get without ending in a tie. 

Ok now in a nutshell: so Flores is a better coach, so what? 

[DesertBengal]

The early numbers are definitely in favor for Brian Flores. He has done more with less.

But I feel his overall win numbers are a bit irrelevant at this point, because his fate will be tied to Tua. If Tua flames out so will Flores as the Dolphins head coach.

I am envious of the Dolphins draft capital though. Asides from the 3 first rounders and 2 second rounders last year, they have another 2 first and second rounders this year. It would be great to have that kind of draft capital with the holes on our roster.

[thillan]

Did we even have a chance with Flores though? Honestly don’t remember, but it not why compare?

[*Nately120*]

Are people really saying ZT is the one saddled with over-the-hill "talent" when Flores has an effective, but ultra-retread player who has played for like 8 or 9 teams playing in the most important position?

I realize things change, but ZT started here with a "win now" roster and Flores was coaching in his first year for a team that people were sure was actually trying to go 0-16. The Dolphins traded away players who are doing quite well like Minkah FItzpatrick and Tannehill and Tunsil (is he doing well? I don't know, but they got rid of a rookie contract LT).

[J24]

Outside of the offensive line this team has the talent to be a playoff team. The fact is we should be 4-2 and not 1-4-1. Which is a strong indicator that the coaching staff is a major liability to the teams ability to win games. We should be talking about the playoffs rather than what are we going to do in April for what seems like the 500th year in a row.