'Bengals need to part ways with Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins now'

[Bengalholic]

(10-20-2020, 05:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point is that the other DEs don't seem to be playing any better.

Maybe the coaches are seeing more on film than I am, but this feels like another Dalton/Finley situation where the coaches just don't have a clue what they are doing.

Agree that the ends haven't really performed very well overall. Sam and Carl have had moments, and Carlos had the one big game, but the group has been very pedestrian. They have issues getting pressure, but even when they do, they struggle to get home.

I hate knocking on Geno in any way because he's one of my all-time favorites, but I can't remember the last time he had a big game or made a real impact. Maybe the Oakland game last year?

[Millhouse]

I was against the Geno deal from day 1, though very few others were, at least in here.

Dunlap I thought there was some value left because he wasnt as old as Geno, but he just hasnt been himself this year.

If someone would bite on taking Geno's deal, reel them in asap. Dunlap I dont know just yet though.

[Bengalholic]

(10-20-2020, 06:09 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I was against the Geno deal from day 1, though very few others were, at least in here.

Dunlap I thought there was some value left because he wasnt as old as Geno, but he just hasnt been himself this year.

If someone would bite on taking Geno's deal, reel them in asap. Dunlap I dont know just yet though.

Yeah, if you can get something for either, I think you have to do it at this point.

At the same time though, I hate thinking about Geno not being a Bengal. 

[WestCoastBengalsFan]

(10-20-2020, 03:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I know there's a thread about Geno and Carlos being frustrated, but I though this article deserved it own:



Dehner Jr.: Bengals need to part ways with Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins now

'How long must the charade continue?

This organization made two mistakes giving large third contracts to Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap.

It did. Spin it any way you’d like, the fact that $25 million in cap hit this year is tied up in two aging 30-somethings who have contributed next to nothing is a debilitating reality.

With a 21-point lead Sunday, the Bengals needed two quality pass rushers to put Philip Rivers and the Colts away.

Instead, on the biggest play of the game, their defensive line consisted of Xavier Williams, Christian Covington, Andrew Brown and Khalid Kareem.

Or otherwise known as a guy plucked off the street last Tuesday, a guy traded for in September, a recent healthy scratch who was waived Monday and a rookie fifth-round pick.

On the sideline was $25 million in pass rushers.

Anarumo and head coach Zac Taylor are in the crosshairs as any coordinator and coach with three wins in 22 games should be. I question how they allowed the relationship with these former players to get so toxic or why Carl Lawson ever comes off the field at this point, but they probably aren’t wrong on who is giving them the best chance to win.

Atkins has zero pressures in 37 snaps this season. Zero. Not a second spent breathing the same air as the quarterback. He has all zeros across every stat in the box score. Not a tackle. Not an assist. Not a thing. If the shoulder he’s dealing with is part of this, then maybe an IR stint is necessary.

He needs to play like a 14m defensive tackle. That’s what the Bengals needed Sunday. He contributed nothing in the snaps he did have, which has mostly been the case in the past few years.

Dunlap’s disinterested effort has translated to his base production. He ranks 47th out of 58 qualifying edge rushers in pass-rush productivity and dead last on the team despite the most pass-rush snaps.

We can argue how it came to this. This isn’t about who carries the blame for the undeniable disconnect created between these players and the staff. Bottom line, between the public bashing Dunlap has fired at the organization and staff at every turn possible this season and the lack of desire illustrated by Atkins to play, much less provide production, it’s obvious there’s no resolution here.

It’s over. The organization has constantly latched onto somehow re-creating 2015, and this is the latest lame attempt.

You have three options for this moment in time. Get rid of Dunlap and Atkins, eating the rest of their ill-advised contracts. Or force the coaching staff to find some way to make it work and risk the veterans continuing to hang around and infect a new core of the locker room. Get rid of the coordinator and hope a new face in charge makes them magically start playing like they are 27 again, at the same time jeopardizing the progress you have seen at other positions, namely with Jessie Bates, William Jackson III and the young linebackers (wasn’t everyone praising Anarumo last week for the innovative plan and success against Lamar Jackson and the Ravens?).

For those discussing a trade, save your breath. Finding teams willing to trade away anything for the large contracts and unproductive tape available on Atkins and Dunlap is wildly misunderstanding the market.

If you actually could find some team willing to give up any assets for those players, then lump that into these conversations as well.

More specifically, just cut them now. End it.'

It's rare that I fully agree with Paul on his takes but this one pretty much nails it. The only part I disagree with is some team may take a chance on them in a trade but Bengals would probably be eating most of the salary in the trade. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-20-2020, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is real easy to make great decisions when you know how everything is going to play out..

Well, apparently I did know how it was going to play out.

I said not moving on from Green, Atkins and Dunlap was a mistake, and that we need to stock-pile picks and cap space. 

Here's one example I just pulled that was written last October, and the person I was replying to was you, having the same exact debate as we are now.  This isn't hindsight, it's me calling it in advance.

(10-27-2019, 07:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You're (intentionally?) leaving out cap savings. It's not just a pick for a player, it's a pick + cap room for a player.

You make it sound as if it's as simple as we need fill Geno Atkins spot with only a 3rd round pick in return, when in reality we also be saving a ton of money.

I'll make it sample, pick one...

Would you rather have a.) Geno Atkins or b.) a 3rd round pick and 14 mil to spend elsewhere?

Would rather have a.) Carlos Dunlap or b.) a 4th round pick and 11 mil to spend elsewhere

If the Bengals were to move a bunch of these guys they could stockpile a handful of picks and have 40 mil plus extra to spend in free agency.  That buys a lot of quality starters. You can immediately fill glaring weaknesses (LBers) and it gives you a lot of flexibility in your rebuild.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-20-2020, 06:16 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, if you can get something for either, I think you have to do it at this point.

I think they wanted too long.  I can't see any team wanting to take on these salaries, much less actually giving up something to do it.

The only chance of them being moved is if they completely blow up in the next two weeks, and have huge performaces.  And even then, I think we would have to eat some of the salary.

The obvious problem with that is it's extremely unlikely.  Gonna be hard to post a monster game when you're only playing 3rd downs, and you currently look like a shell of your former self.

They really missed their window at the last trade deadline.  In a lost year, that resulted in the worst record in the league, that was the time to move on.  Both still had some value to a contender, and we were in obvious need of a roster overhaul. 

But, of course, we aren't in the business of making other teams better, and we're so opposed to moving anyone that the family scheduled a ski trip the week of one of the most important weeks of the season. Sucks to be us, I guess.

[*ochocincos*]

Atkins is the 8th highest paid DT on a yearly average.
Dunlap is the 12th highest paid DE on a yearly average.

If they are not performing near their pay grade (Top 10 at their position), they are not returning that value.

If they are cut/traded, it would free up $20 mill in cap space for next year.
That cap space can go toward getting an elite veteran or two for OL (assuming they would be available in FA and willing to sign).
The Bengals could then use earlier draft picks to go toward a DE and DT rather than draft for OL early.

[PikesPeakUC]

I think a lot of teams make the mistake of paying players for past performance, not for the performance they expect over the coming years. Geno is one of my favorite Bengals since I've been watching them play, and Dunlap to a lesser extent, but they both benefitted from this. Unfortunately I just don't see them being a part of this team when it's time to compete and that money could be used elsewhere to bring in players that fit the timeline more. I think AJ is in the same boat.

I appreciate dearly what they all brought to this team. I love watching them play. It's just time to transition into the next era, for better or worse. Either find a trade partner or let them go, eat the dead cap this year ( or as a designated post year cut ) and move on. It hurts, but them being here isn't beneficial for either side with the current situation.

[*jason*]

(10-20-2020, 05:52 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Because he’s been injured and not played well. Why would they NOT play him if he helped them win?

Because this is a staff of flunkies?

[Hoofhearted]

(10-20-2020, 06:56 PM)jason Wrote: Because this is a staff of flunkies?

They could very well be the case, but he’s still been hurt and not producing like a 14 million dollar DT. Both can be both true, but either way it’s a silly use of resources.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2020, 05:17 PM)J24 Wrote: Atkins has only played 36 snaps this season so I have zero idea how anyone can honestly give an opinion of his play so far 

Secondly Dunlap played well the previous 3 games so once again the demise of him has been extremely exaggerated just like last season.

Sure, he's only played 36 snaps, but what has he done in those opportunities?  I tried to pay attention to him, when he was in on Sunday.  Seemed like every time I saw him, he was getting stood up at the line.  No drive, no moves, no trademark Geno swim moves, just plain stalemated by the Guard alone.  For a DT making $14M+, that is pathetic.  No stats whatsoever, not even an assist on a tackle..

(10-20-2020, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has 18 tkls, 1 sack, 2 PDs, 2 TFL, and 3 QB hits.

Those numbers might be leading the Bengals right now, but from a "star" player like Carlos Dunlap, that is very pedestrian for about 1/3 of a season.  He's still a very talented player, he still makes the plays that come to him;  But there is no denying that he's definitely lost a step, and his overall fire burns a few degrees cooler than it did even as recent as last season.  I expect more from a DE making $11M+

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(10-20-2020, 03:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I know there's a thread about Geno and Carlos being frustrated, but I though this article deserved it own:



Dehner Jr.: Bengals need to part ways with Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins now

'How long must the charade continue?

This organization made two mistakes giving large third contracts to Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap.

It did. Spin it any way you’d like, the fact that $25 million in cap hit this year is tied up in two aging 30-somethings who have contributed next to nothing is a debilitating reality.

With a 21-point lead Sunday, the Bengals needed two quality pass rushers to put Philip Rivers and the Colts away.

Instead, on the biggest play of the game, their defensive line consisted of Xavier Williams, Christian Covington, Andrew Brown and Khalid Kareem.

Or otherwise known as a guy plucked off the street last Tuesday, a guy traded for in September, a recent healthy scratch who was waived Monday and a rookie fifth-round pick.

On the sideline was $25 million in pass rushers.

Anarumo and head coach Zac Taylor are in the crosshairs as any coordinator and coach with three wins in 22 games should be. I question how they allowed the relationship with these former players to get so toxic or why Carl Lawson ever comes off the field at this point, but they probably aren’t wrong on who is giving them the best chance to win.

Atkins has zero pressures in 37 snaps this season. Zero. Not a second spent breathing the same air as the quarterback. He has all zeros across every stat in the box score. Not a tackle. Not an assist. Not a thing. If the shoulder he’s dealing with is part of this, then maybe an IR stint is necessary.

He needs to play like a 14m defensive tackle. That’s what the Bengals needed Sunday. He contributed nothing in the snaps he did have, which has mostly been the case in the past few years.

Dunlap’s disinterested effort has translated to his base production. He ranks 47th out of 58 qualifying edge rushers in pass-rush productivity and dead last on the team despite the most pass-rush snaps.

We can argue how it came to this. This isn’t about who carries the blame for the undeniable disconnect created between these players and the staff. Bottom line, between the public bashing Dunlap has fired at the organization and staff at every turn possible this season and the lack of desire illustrated by Atkins to play, much less provide production, it’s obvious there’s no resolution here.

It’s over. The organization has constantly latched onto somehow re-creating 2015, and this is the latest lame attempt.

You have three options for this moment in time. Get rid of Dunlap and Atkins, eating the rest of their ill-advised contracts. Or force the coaching staff to find some way to make it work and risk the veterans continuing to hang around and infect a new core of the locker room. Get rid of the coordinator and hope a new face in charge makes them magically start playing like they are 27 again, at the same time jeopardizing the progress you have seen at other positions, namely with Jessie Bates, William Jackson III and the young linebackers (wasn’t everyone praising Anarumo last week for the innovative plan and success against Lamar Jackson and the Ravens?).

For those discussing a trade, save your breath. Finding teams willing to trade away anything for the large contracts and unproductive tape available on Atkins and Dunlap is wildly misunderstanding the market.

If you actually could find some team willing to give up any assets for those players, then lump that into these conversations as well.

More specifically, just cut them now. End it.'

At this point it should be a fire sale.......because the coaches couldn't coach up a pee wee team. But I'd still take sides with Geno, Los & AJ all day long over coaches & management. Sh!t has been going downhill since they let Whit walk & they have done a horrible job of fixing the O-line & the linebackers corp. I feel so bad for Burrow. Kid looks like he could be great. 

[QueenCity]

Front office

They finally spent $$$ in FA

They got rid of Marvin

This is another test for the FO.... do they cut bate with aging Vets. If they do this hell I might be willing to give their coach 1 more year.

[Tony]

(10-20-2020, 05:34 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The point is, Dunlap is not playing up to his potential, especially in the run game. Reducing his snaps (he's not benched) is the coaches only means of trying to motivate him to get his production up.

What would Whit have done, he probably would have taken the snaps given to him and reeked havoc on the field so they couldn't demote him again.

When I think of Dunlap this year,  all I can think of is statue Carson Wentz schooling him on that 4th quarter TD run... That was Sad..

[J24]

(10-20-2020, 05:52 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Because he’s been injured and not played well. Why would they NOT play him if he helped them win?

Because the coaching doesn't know what they are doing.

(10-20-2020, 05:52 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Atkins was in on 11 3rd downs this week. He was a complete nonfactor in those situations. 

As for Carlos, he's had no substantial impact outside the Eagles game except for an occasional here or there.

This doesn't even require opinions, it's just the reality of where these guys are at the moment.

1.) Half of those attempts were were with three man rushes and it was going against the best pass blocking line in the league. You're really going to give Geno(a future first ballot HoF) a chance to prove himself.
2.) He had a 70 pff rating in the Jaguars game and a sack in the Raven game. So he has had a pretty good impact on this team since the Eagle game. 

(10-20-2020, 07:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sure, he's only played 36 snaps, but what has he done in those opportunities?  I tried to pay attention to him, when he was in on Sunday.  Seemed like every time I saw him, he was getting stood up at the line.  No drive, no moves, no trademark Geno swim moves, just plain stalemated by the Guard alone.  For a DT making $14M+, that is pathetic.  No stats whatsoever, not even an assist on a tackle..

Those numbers might be leading the Bengals right now, but from a "star" player like Carlos Dunlap, that is very pedestrian for about 1/3 of a season.  He's still a very talented player, he still makes the plays that come to him;  But there is no denying that he's definitely lost a step, and his overall fire burns a few degrees cooler than it did even as recent as last season.  I expect more from a DE making $11M+

Then why was Geno the 5th rated player for the Bengals on Sunday PFF? 

[Joelist]

The problem with the DEs is poor technique more than anything else. In pass rush they constantly overshoot the pocket and on run plays they consistently fail to seal the edges. And it isn't like they get blocked off of the edge they don't do it properly in the first place.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-20-2020, 08:35 PM)J24 Wrote:  Then why was Geno the 5th rated player for the Bengals on Sunday PFF? 

Being the 5th rated defender on a unit that blew a 21-0 lead is nothing to be proud of.  The man get's paid $14M to be a disruptor. 

You can try to rationalize the lack of production any way you want to, but the evidence points to him not being worth the money they're paying him.

[J24]

(10-20-2020, 08:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Being the 5th rated defender on a unit that blew a 21-0 lead is nothing to be proud of.  The man get's paid $14M to be a disruptor. 

You can try to rationalize the lack of production any way you want to, but the evidence points to him not being worth the money they're paying him.

Better than the players that are in front of him.
He only had 18 snaps, half of those times he was playing with a three man rush, and he was doing against one of the best offensive lines that have only given up 6 sacks all here. Acting like the guy should be cut is a bit ridiculous especially considering he wasn't given a fair chance. 

[Bengalholic]

(10-20-2020, 09:01 PM)J24 Wrote: Better than the players that are in front of him.
He only had 18 snaps, half of those times he was playing with a three man rush, and he was doing against one of the best offensive lines that have only given up 6 sacks all here. Acting like the guy should be cut is a bit ridiculous especially considering he wasn't given a fair chance. 

In Geno's last 11 games, he's only had one game with a sack, 1 total tackle for a loss, just 6 QB hits and has 3 or less tackles 8 times. Something has been off with Geno for awhile now, well beyond just Sunday.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Starting to trend that way with these guys, but I don't know if right now is the time to eat all that dough.

Loved everything Geno and Dunlap have done for us but Geno looks out of shape after coming back and did nothing
against the Colts as mentioned and I have not liked what Dunlap has said this year off the field. Made a good play in
the Colts game on the RB on the edge but other than that he has just overpursued this year for the most part opening
up running lanes for RB's and QB's.

Bottom line, these 2 are not worth the money they are being paid right now.

Still the dissention makes me think that the vets are getting tired of Taylor finally. Taylor needs to go, he cannot win
close games and cannot win even when we win the turnover battle.