Zak needs 1 more year to change culture

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-18-2020, 01:04 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Point is, Tennessee is a play off team. And they don't have two weeks, no one is at the facility during a bye week. Thinking the players have 2 weeks to get ready is a misnomer.

I don't want to speak for the person you were replying to, but I've always understood the logic behind having two weeks to prepare as more of a coaching/gameplan/scheme advantage.  

You have an entre extra week to be able to break down film, and to design and install a gameplan.  It allows you to really focus in on your oppenent.

Remember, in a typical week, a staff has to do this in a manner of days, and have it somewhat ready by the middle of week for practice, and then finalized by Friday's walkthrough.  Adding 7 days to this process should, theoretically, give you a competitive advantage from an X's and O's standpoint.

[impactplaya]

Zac simply failed in getting this team ready for Pittsburgh.
Like I said before he failed to.attack the weaknesses of their
Defense and his offensive gameplan was lacking
In creativity and negating the Steelers strength
On defense

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2020, 01:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I don't want to speak for the person you were replying to, but I've always understood the logic behind having two weeks to prepare as more of a coaching/gameplan/scheme advantage.  

You have an entre extra week to be able to break down film, and to design and install a gameplan.  It allows you to really focus in on your oppenent.

Remember, in a typical week, a staff has to do this in a manner of days, and have it somewhat ready by the middle of week for practice, and then finalized by Friday's walkthrough.  Adding 7 days to this process should, theoretically, give you a competitive advantage from an X's and O's standpoint.

Didn't seem to work for the last staff either.....

[BengalChris]

(11-17-2020, 01:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: Who are these vets "used to winning"? We haven't won a playoff game in 30 years, and haven't had a winning season in FIVE years. LOL.

(11-17-2020, 02:05 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The last time you could pair the word good with the Bengals was mid 2015. It's been straight downhill since. I guess he's talking about that pre mid 2015 era. But even then used to winning is sort of a stretch.

  You guys do remember that AJ, Dunlap and Atkins went to the playoffs 5 straight years. By next training camp they'll all be gone. Yes, they are all on the down side of their careers, but none have been utilized to their strengths and I'm fairly certain they'll actually contribute somewhere, unlike with Taylor.

Winning is relative. Just looking at the Taylor team we are witnessing at the moment simply having a win streak of any length at all, even two games, would be winning for this dismal ass team.

 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2020, 04:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote:   You guys do remember that AJ, Dunlap and Atkins went to the playoffs 5 straight years. By next training camp they'll all be gone. Yes, they are all on the down side of their careers, but none have been utilized to their strengths and I'm fairly certain they'll actually contribute somewhere, unlike with Taylor.

Winning is relative. Just looking at the Taylor team we are witnessing at the moment simply having a win streak of any length at all, even two games, would be winning for this dismal ass team.

 

Yeah, it's been rough, but we also gotta remember that those veterans started this skid under Marvin. They haven't won much at all since 2015, regardless of the HC. It's just a fact of nature. They've stayed here past their expiration date. Green is dropping passes, not making the acrobatic catches he used to make, and he's definitely slower. Geno is playing hurt, Dunlap just quit....but the younger guys that came in under Marvin are playing pretty damn good ball on the offensive side, save for Price.

[BengalChris]

(11-18-2020, 04:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah, it's been rough, but we also gotta remember that those veterans started this skid under Marvin. They haven't won much at all since 2015, regardless of the HC. It's just a fact of nature. They've stayed here past their expiration date. Green is dropping passes, not making the acrobatic catches he used to make, and he's definitely slower. Geno is playing hurt, Dunlap just quit....but the younger guys that came in under Marvin are playing pretty damn good ball on the offensive side, save for Price.

Yeah, but I look more at the depletion of talent that the front office led the team into. Insulting Whit, not even offering Zietler a contract, Ogbuehi, Fisher, Ross. Just those 5 mistakes has cost the team dearly.

There were some good picks form the Marvin era that are helping the team now like Hubbard, Bates, Willie Jackson, Boyd, Hopkins, Mixon, etc. But none of those guys were drafted during that 5 years playoffs.

 

[Sled21]

(11-18-2020, 04:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: Didn't seem to work for the last staff either.....

I posted the percentages earlier.... teams coming off the bye win 50 something % of the time. So, it's not just the Bengals. It's just not the competitive advantage people make it out to be. What it really is, is a chance to buy some time for injuries to heal.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-18-2020, 04:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote:   You guys do remember that AJ, Dunlap and Atkins went to the playoffs 5 straight years. By next training camp they'll all be gone. Yes, they are all on the down side of their careers, but none have been utilized to their strengths and I'm fairly certain they'll actually contribute somewhere, unlike with Taylor.

Winning is relative. Just looking at the Taylor team we are witnessing at the moment simply having a win streak of any length at all, even two games, would be winning for this dismal ass team.

 

Geno and Dunlap maybe, but how have we not used AJ correctly? There’s a lot to criticize Taylor over, but AJ is not one of them. His poor play is 100% on him.

[reuben.ahmed]

no, he and any staff he brought in should be gone at end of season, thank you.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2020, 04:39 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, but I look more at the depletion of talent that the front office led the team into. Insulting Whit, not even offering Zietler a contract, Ogbuehi, Fisher, Ross. Just those 5 mistakes has cost the team dearly.

There were some good picks form the Marvin era that are helping the team now like Hubbard, Bates, Willie Jackson, Boyd, Hopkins, Mixon, etc. But none of those guys were drafted during that 5 years playoffs.

 

Absolutely. The only reason I blamed Marvin is because we speculated he had control over everything....but we're learning that wasn't the case totally. I do believe he got a little stale though, and his last couple of rounds of assistants weren't that great either, plus he still had to deal with Piano Man. So, they failed him, and they have failed the current staff.... whether they're good or not. Which is kind of my point. This team was circling the drain already. You bring in totally new ideas, aging and depleted roster, inexperienced coaches.... it's a recipe for disaster.

I'd like to see them rattle off 3 or 4 wins here, be competitive against Balt and Pitt, and I'll give him another off-season to right the ship. After that, no excuses. If they continue to lose? Say adios. I'd like to see Wade Phillips brought in next year if things go well enough to keep Taylor too.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-18-2020, 04:44 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I posted the percentages earlier.... teams coming off the bye win 50 something % of the time. So, it's not just the Bengals. It's just not the competitive advantage people make it out to be. What it really is, is a chance to buy some time for injuries to heal.

Yep.

[Coach513]

(11-16-2020, 12:25 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I know emotions run high during Steelers week but we will never be any good with a losing culture.
It is not easy to change players who prefer the previous regime over the current regime.

Zak used the first year to analyze the personnel. The second year was used to make the first round of changes.
Geno, Ross, Dunlap, Jackson III and AJ will not be around next year. That saves at least over 50 mil in contracts.
They will use that money to sign key free agents like a OG, OT, DE's or CB's.

I see positive things happening for this team.

Next year we will have Reader, Waynes, Uzomah back from injuries.
I think Adenji and Spain played well at Tackles today.
We could have Jonah Williams to RT and have Adenji stay at LT with Spain RG, Jordan LG Hopkins C.
If we get a high draft pick I would select Micah Parsons to play M-LB.

If next year at the break we do not see a big improvement than a coaching change may be needed.

Zac Sucks, Joe Burrow is keeping this team Watchable. He needs to go, watching this guy call a game is laughable.. Real Football guys know he dookie.. Marvin would of had this team contending much like Andy's rookie team. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-16-2020, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We were 17th in scoring offense in 2018 the year before Taylor took over.

In his two seasons we are 30th and 22nd.

Oh stop it, you should not use RANK, as rank year to year ceiling and floor change. Some years multiple teams avg over 30 ppg while other years none do. Same on the other end, some barely crack double digits in ppg and if teams are tied, they are listed by Alpha.

2003 21.6 ppg Kitna started all 16
2004 23.4 ppg Palmer first season started 13 games
2005 25.8 ppg
2006 23.3 ppg
2007 23.8 ppg
2008 12.8 ppg Palmer only played first 4 games
2009 18.8 ppg
2010 20.1 ppg
2011 20.8 ppg AD Era starts
2012 23.8 ppg
2013 25.9 ppg 
2014 22.1 ppg
2015 25.6 ppg AD Started 13 games
2016 20.3 ppg
2017 18.1 ppg
2018 23.0 ppg AD started 11 games
2019 17.4 ppg AD started 13 games
2020 22.7 ppg Burrow Starts

Now let's talk about what kind of OL each QB inherited
CP: Levi, Steinbach, Braham, Bobbie Williams, Willie  
AD: Whitworth, Livings, Cook, Bobbie, Andre
JB: J Williams/Adenji, Jordan, Hopkins, Redmond/Price/XSF/Spain, Hart/Taylor/Spain

Now obviously, ML inherited/maintained a much better OL (til Ogy/Fischer/Price) than ZT has been able to put together.

However, JB is doing better in his first year than AD and just under CP (who both had multiple All-Pros on their Lines) with a line that might generate 1 All-Pro (Williams).
 
As you can see there is lots of variables that feed into a teams "rank" Just take that 22.7 and replace the 23.0 in 2018 and it's the same rank, how ever flip it and guess what?? Same rank.. 22nd in 2020.

So each QB started with a floor and rose up over the next 3-4 years before dipping again. I like where JB's floor is, I'd like to see what he could do with an OL like the 2 previous QB's had, I think his ceiling could be higher than CP's.

[Sled21]

(11-19-2020, 12:53 AM)Coach513 Wrote: Zac Sucks, Joe Burrow is keeping this team Watchable. He needs to go, watching this guy call a game is laughable.. Real Football guys know he dookie.. Marvin would of had this team contending much like Andy's rookie team. 

Marvin Smarvin. When he was here all we heard was criticisms about time management, time out usage, not making adjustments, playing vets no matter what....blah blah blah. With the injuries this team has suffered this year (Yeah, injuries happen to all teams, but c'mon, our D line was wiped out) I don't know that any coach could have this team contending this year. 

[*ochocincos*]

If I told my upline management that I needed 3+ years to change the culture, they'd laugh in my face and tell me we can't wait that long for that. It'd be an even worse sell if I took a team that was decently performing down to performing terribly for multiple years.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-19-2020, 09:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Marvin Smarvin. When he was here all we heard was criticisms about time management, time out usage, not making adjustments, playing vets no matter what....blah blah blah. With the injuries this team has suffered this year (Yeah, injuries happen to all teams, but c'mon, our D line was wiped out) I don't know that any coach could have this team contending this year. 

Correct, but solid playcalling can still get the team to 6-8 wins.
If this team doesn't at least get 3 more wins, it's hard to put the blame solely on just injuries.

[Luvnit2]

(11-17-2020, 04:41 PM)Wyche Wrote: Not necessarily defending the guy, as much as I'm realizing it takes more than a season to switch up schemes dramatically, coupled with a bad and aging roster. They are getting younger, and brought in some help, but some of those guys haven't played this season, other not much. As I noted earlier...if he can't have a winning record over these next few weeks where he should, then look to move on this year. If he does, and team is more competitive against Pitt and Balt in the 2nd games like with Cleveland, then you look at retaining him and tweaking the staff, especially DC. 

ML and ZT have very similar situations. ML got the #1 pick in the NFL draft and ZT got a number 1 pick in the NFL draft. Why relevant? It means both early in their careers took over the worst team (record) in the NFL so both had very bad rosters.

I am not saying cut ZT lose, but if you look at ML progress versus ZT progress early in their Bengals careers, ML is way ahead. We have a a very weak rest of the schedule, 5-2 is possible and 4-3 should be expected. If that does not happen, then why should team give Zac more time? Does a 2 win and then a 5 win (assuming he only goes 3-4) coach deserve anything?

The weird thing about this team is they seem to like each other and appear to give it 100%. At least the young guys do, Green, Dunlap and Geno being the major exceptions, the high paid guys so go figure?

[*ochocincos*]

(11-19-2020, 11:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ML and ZT have very similar situations. ML got the #1 pick in the NFL draft and ZT got a number 1 pick in the NFL draft. Why relevant? It means both early in their careers took over the worst team (record) in the NFL so both had very bad rosters.

I am not saying cut ZT lose, but if you look at ML progress versus ZT progress early in their Bengals careers, ML is way ahead. We have a a very weak rest of the schedule, 5-2 is possible and 4-3 should be expected. If that does not happen, then why should team give Zac more time? Does a 2 win and then a 5 win (assuming he only goes 3-4) coach deserve anything?

The weird thing about this team is they seem to like each other and appear to give it 100%. At least the young guys do, Green, Dunlap and Geno being the major exceptions, the high paid guys so go figure?

Is it just me or do you get vibes from the veterans of, "Cater the playcalling and scheme to fit my skillset" vs "I'll make adjustments to fit"?

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-19-2020, 12:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Is it just me or do you get vibes from the veterans of, "Cater the playcalling and scheme to fit my skillset" vs "I'll make adjustments to fit"?

I do 

I'd bet there's a good chance that's what AJ was telling the coach on the bench a couple weeks ago. 

[Coach513]

(11-19-2020, 09:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Marvin Smarvin. When he was here all we heard was criticisms about time management, time out usage, not making adjustments, playing vets no matter what....blah blah blah. With the injuries this team has suffered this year (Yeah, injuries happen to all teams, but c'mon, our D line was wiped out) I don't know that any coach could have this team contending this year. 

To clarify marvin sucks too but he's better than zac. AND yes the dline has been dealing with injuries but we have been in every game outside of two. Defensively we are running a 5-2 with 5 down lineman with their hand in the dirt alot with a depleted line. Dude sucks I know peewee coaches who could do better!!! I know a few coaches who would have this team winning.