Thuney and Warford

[Whatever]

(11-23-2020, 01:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I love the idea of adding Thuney and Warford in FA but it would mean moving on from WJ3, Lawson, and probably others.
If you do that, you should have a stud offense but you'll have to go basically full defense in the draft.

Without WJ3 and Lawson, you'd need to get 1-2 CBs (replace WJ3 and Alexander), 2-3 DL (replace Dunlap, Lawson, and heir to Atkins), and maybe 1 LB (replace Bynes/Evans) all in the draft.
If you're spending your 1st round pick on Sewell, you are having to get quality play out of the gate from basically every Rd 2-6 pick.

Are you willing to gamble that much on all those draft picks for defense to contribute as rookies?

This year has made it apparent that there are too many roster holes to be filled in one off-season.  We need to build around Burrow first, evaluate what our big FA adds on defense from this year can do with a full season next year, then fix the D in '22.

Besides 3 starters on the OL, they need a #3, #5, and #6 WR and they need another RB can handle 15-20 carries a game in case Mixon goes down again.  A K that doesn't leave 7 points on the field in the 1st half would be nice,too.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-23-2020, 01:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: This year has made it apparent that there are too many roster holes to be filled in one off-season.  We need to build around Burrow first, evaluate what our big FA adds on defense from this year can do with a full season next year, then fix the D in '22.

Besides 3 starters on the OL, they need a #3, #5, and #6 WR and they need another RB can handle 15-20 carries a game in case Mixon goes down again.  A K that doesn't leave 7 points on the field in the 1st half would be nice,too.

I was thinking/hoping that Spain and XSF would be serviceable enough that they could get by with just 1 addition on the OL this offseason, re-sign WJ3 and Lawson, and then use the rest of their draft picks on players that wouldn't necessarily be forced to start but who could have a big impact being part of a rotation.

They might still be able to get there with XSF and Spain, but I would hope that by the end of this season they acknowledge that Jordan cannot be the starter at LG going into 2021.

For WR, I think they can re-sign Thomas to be their WR6. He's fine as a ST guy. They can then either draft 2 WRs or draft 1 and get a cheaper veteran in FA.

The pass rush is still the worst position group on the team IMO, at least once XSF is back.

[BenZoo2]

I don’t think warford is the answer. He seems to have weight and/or a possible medical concern. Knee issues from his weight? Aren’t the saints moving on from him because he can’t get out in space?


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[RiverRat13]

You can't spend money on two high priced guards. Thuney is a must. Overpay for him if you have to. Then be opportunistic for RG. You have Spain and XSF as fallback options. But be ready to pounce if a guy like Zeitler gets cut and you can bring him back at half his current price, or if someone falls in your lap at pick 35 who is a great value.

If they cut Geno, Hart, and CJ, there should be enough money to get Thuney, extend Bates, and bring back both WJIII and Lawson.

[J24]

There not going to get rid of Hart after the season he is having (not saying they shouldn't) and Williams will move to guard after Sewell is drafted.

[Whatever]

(11-23-2020, 02:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was thinking/hoping that Spain and XSF would be serviceable enough that they could get by with just 1 addition on the OL this offseason, re-sign WJ3 and Lawson, and then use the rest of their draft picks on players that wouldn't necessarily be forced to start but who could have a big impact being part of a rotation.

They might still be able to get there with XSF and Spain, but I would hope that by the end of this season they acknowledge that Jordan cannot be the starter at LG going into 2021.

For WR, I think they can re-sign Thomas to be their WR6. He's fine as a ST guy. They can then either draft 2 WRs or draft 1 and get a cheaper veteran in FA.

The pass rush is still the worst position group on the team IMO, at least once XSF is back.

We hoped for serviceable this year.  Jonah, Hopkins, and Hart are all average/serviceable starters.  If you have 3 good starters, you can get by with 1-2 mediocre ones.  We don't have 1.  Jonah hopefully makes the jump next year, but Hart and Trey are likely topped out.

You can reup Thomas and spend a day 3 pick to fill #5 and 6, but #3 WR is effectively a starter, which means a substantial contract or early draft pick.  We should have double-dipped there last year instead of drafting 3 stack LB's.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-23-2020, 03:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: We hoped for serviceable this year.  Jonah, Hopkins, and Hart are all average/serviceable starters.  If you have 3 good starters, you can get by with 1-2 mediocre ones.  We don't have 1.  Jonah hopefully makes the jump next year, but Hart and Trey are likely topped out.

You can reup Thomas and spend a day 3 pick to fill #5 and 6, but #3 WR is effectively a starter, which means a substantial contract or early draft pick.  We should have double-dipped there last year instead of drafting 3 stack LB's.

I would argue Jonah Williams is considered a "good" starter.
I would say Hart has been "good" from a run blocking perspective, Hopkins "good" from a pass blocking perspective.
I would say XSF and Spain are considered "mediocre."

The big problem this year is there hasn't been a single game where we've had all of Jonah, XSF, Hopkins, Spain, and Hart all healthy.
Game 1 doesn't really count because Spain wasn't here yet, and XSF got injured partway through.

For WR, you have to give Tate a shot to be a WR3 the rest of the season. If he's not displayed enough consistency by year's end, you have to find a WR3. As you said, that would probably have to be a Day 1 or 2 draft pick or else get one in FA. With that said, a solid WR3 could be had for about $4-6 mill a year. It doesn't have to be $8+ mill.

[3wt]

(11-23-2020, 10:05 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'd rather we have a safe offensive line for Burrow to play behind but a defense that couldn't stop anything than compromise our Oline to get a pass rusher or CB in the 2nd round, personally. We can always build the defense in 2021 or 2022, but the franchise needs to be protected immediately. I wouldn't even be upset if they just, down the line, took the best offensive lineman in each round. It wouldn't be efficient drafting, but it would significantly lower the chances of an Ogbuehi or Fisher level choice setting us back 5 years.

This.   Yesterday was proof of that.  To me Sewell and Thuney would be the target and everything else would be BPA.   We need better DL, CB, WR and LB.

But we must protect this man.   We've farted around long enough.    The second half proved just how good Joe has been and why we need to truly protect him.   Keep whatever else you cannot truly replace and continue building around Burrow.

[Essex Johnson]

Need to improve the line but you don;t have to have great lines with expected Franchise QBs.. Brady and even Manning did not have great lines through the years but good enough line. Dalton had good lines but I would not say great lines during our 5 year run to playoffs.. Burrow is better at this point than Dalton and should continue to get better so if he becomes plays at franchise QB level good enough will do it...

I see next year as a maybe he plays or maybe he does not play and would only look to sign good FA lineman and draft another 1/2 round pick.. then after next season look to go one more FA lineman.. still have to improve the defense

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-23-2020, 02:20 PM)J24 Wrote: There not going to get rid of Hart after the season he is having (not saying they shouldn't) and Williams will move to guard after Sewell is drafted.

???

Move Hart to G then. Why do a Whitworth-sitch 2.0?

[J24]

(11-23-2020, 04:51 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: ???

Move Hart to G then. Why do a Whitworth-sitch 2.0?

Because Jonah fits the G position better than Hart? Didn't Jonah play G at Alabama a bit as well. Anyways Whitworth moving to G didn't hurt the offense at all in 13.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-23-2020, 05:40 PM)J24 Wrote: Because Jonah fits the G position better than Hart? Didn't Jonah play G at Alabama a bit as well. Anyways Whitworth moving to G didn't hurt the offense at all in 13.

*Run offense*

Anthony Collins is NOT a better run-blocker than Whitworth.

Hart played G and T all throughout college, while Jonah was at RT and LT.

Jonah is also not a mauling run blocker, so he's the last guy you want at T, while Hart is actually a decent run blocker.

[J24]

(11-23-2020, 05:44 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: *Run offense*

Anthony Collins is NOT a better run-blocker than Whitworth.

Hart played G and T all throughout college, while Jonah was at RT and LT.

Jonah is also not a mauling run blocker, so he's the last guy you want at T, while Hart is actually a decent run blocker.

My point wasn't that Collins was better than Whitworth it just showed how good of a player that Whit was that he could switch positions like that and still be awesome.

Anyways last season they moved Glenn to Guard before Williams got hurt so I think they could do the same thing with Williams if they draft Sewelll.  Nothing is set in stone though.

[Hammerstripes]

(11-23-2020, 03:04 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Should be our top FA targets. Who says no to this OL?

Sewell - Thuney - Hopkins - Warford - Williams

Spain and XSF as backup OG’s. Hart and Adeniji backup OT’s. Price backup center. I’ve seen enough of Jordan. Cut him, Fred Johnson, and Redmond, or shoot them out of a cannon for all I care. No more scrubs protecting our franchise QB. Just can’t have it.

No on Warford.  He hasn't been very good recently.

I think Spain and a premier OG FA would be perfect.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-23-2020, 05:53 PM)J24 Wrote: My point wasn't that Collins was better than Whitworth it just showed how good of a player that Whit was that he could switch positions like that and still be awesome.

Anyways last season they moved Glenn to Guard before Williams got hurt so I think they could do the same thing with Williams if they draft Sewelll.  Nothing is set in stone though.

Cordy played G at Georgia

lol I totally get your point though; I would just move Hart to G before I would ever think about moving Jonah.

[Bengalstripes9]

(11-23-2020, 07:36 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Geoff? Is that you? Come to dust off the annual article that says the Bengals REALLY only have $15m in cap space to spend?

Just trying to be realistic. To be more realistic, what likely happens is we get a mid tier guard in FA and possibly even pass on the franchise LT because we drafted one 3 years ago.

In my opinion, a top tier FA guard and a franchise LT in the draft is our best case scenario, but not likely.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-23-2020, 03:04 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Should be our top FA targets. Who says no to this OL?

Sewell - Thuney - Hopkins - Warford - Williams

Spain and XSF as backup OG’s. Hart and Adeniji backup OT’s. Price backup center. I’ve seen enough of Jordan. Cut him, Fred Johnson, and Redmond, or shoot them out of a cannon for all I care. No more scrubs protecting our franchise QB. Just can’t have it.

Would be one of the strongest Bengals Offensive lines since 2005 if not since 1989.   At least on paper.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-23-2020, 01:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I love the idea of adding Thuney and Warford in FA but it would mean moving on from WJ3, Lawson, and probably others.
If you do that, you should have a stud offense but you'll have to go basically full defense in the draft.

Without WJ3 and Lawson, you'd need to get 1-2 CBs (replace WJ3 and Alexander), 2-3 DL (replace Dunlap, Lawson, and heir to Atkins), and maybe 1 LB (replace Bynes/Evans) all in the draft.
If you're spending your 1st round pick on Sewell, you are having to get quality play out of the gate from basically every Rd 2-6 pick.

Are you willing to gamble that much on all those draft picks for defense to contribute as rookies?

Yes. All that matters is protecting the franchise. If the defense sucks for a couple more years so be it. Burrow has shown he can keep us in most games anyway even with a terrible defense. Imagine if he actually has a good OL and running game...

[Whatever]

(11-23-2020, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would argue Jonah Williams is considered a "good" starter.
I would say Hart has been "good" from a run blocking perspective, Hopkins "good" from a pass blocking perspective.
I would say XSF and Spain are considered "mediocre."

The big problem this year is there hasn't been a single game where we've had all of Jonah, XSF, Hopkins, Spain, and Hart all healthy.
Game 1 doesn't really count because Spain wasn't here yet, and XSF got injured partway through.

For WR, you have to give Tate a shot to be a WR3 the rest of the season. If he's not displayed enough consistency by year's end, you have to find a WR3. As you said, that would probably have to be a Day 1 or 2 draft pick or else get one in FA. With that said, a solid WR3 could be had for about $4-6 mill a year. It doesn't have to be $8+ mill.

Hopkins is a bad run blocker and Hart is a bad pass blocker, though, so they are average at best, overall.  With Spain, you have to consider that the Bills are a playoff team and didn't even value him as quality depth in case a starter went down.  While he's been better than what we've put out there, he is still far from good.  I give him credit for playing well considering the circumstances, but he's shown nothing to me that says he should be resigned and penciled in as a starter.

They've had Tate through 2 TC's and got an extended look at him last year.  He isn't the answer.  He hasn't impressed outside of the Titans game.  Even worse, undersized CB's have shown how you can erase his size advantage through solid positional play.  If you sit AJ to plug him in as the #3, people will just blame Finley if he doesn't produce, anyways.

We are more than a year away, sadly.  We can't keep refusing to accept the situation.  We need to get away from this "If this scrub and that scrub step up, we get immediate starters with our first 3 picks, and nobody gets hurt..."mindset.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-23-2020, 04:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Need to improve the line but you don;t have to have great lines with expected Franchise QBs.. Brady and even Manning did not have great lines through the years but good enough line. Dalton had good lines but I would not say great lines during our 5 year run to playoffs.. Burrow is better at this point than Dalton and should continue to get better so if he becomes plays at franchise QB level good enough will do it...

I see next year as a maybe he plays or maybe he does not play and would only look to sign good FA lineman and draft another 1/2 round pick.. then after next season look to go one more FA lineman.. still have to improve the defense

Funny I was told for years on this very board the exact opposite about the Pats OL...