Argument for and against Sewell.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 01:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They’ve won their last couple games without Garrett even playing.

Ok. I didn't say they didn't.

[Hammerstripes]

(12-03-2020, 12:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: Thing is, Lawson and WJIII are solid, but not great starters.  Their PFF grades are 70.2 and 69.7, respectively.  Lawson has 5 sacks and WJIII has 1 pick.  These are not guys that we should break the bank to resign, but many are budgeting Pro Bowler type money to retain them.

Thats because guys like that get overpaid in free agency.   Happens every year.  Just look at the contract Waynes got and tell me that Jackson wouldn't be looking at something similar.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 01:59 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Thats because guys like that get overpaid in free agency.   Happens every year.  Just look at the contract Waynes got and tell me that Jackson wouldn't be looking at something similar.

I'm a little irritated by Waynes' contract TBH, as I think WJ3 is better from a coverage perspective.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 01:34 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'd take Thuney, Wolfe, and Ryan, though Ryan wouldn't be my first choice at CB.  I would rather sign an outside CB because Phillips has looked solid when asked to play the slot.  I think that trio would also come cheaper than $25 mil since Wolfe and Ryan signed one year prove it deals this year after their respective markets were soft last year.  I would personally not pay more than $8-9 mil a year for Lawson or WJIII.

Wolfe and Ryan signed for a combined $9.5 mill for 2020.
Do we not think Ryan can play outside CB anymore? I know he's playing FS with the Giants this year, but I remember him being an outside CB for many years. 

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 01:35 PM)Synric Wrote: But still giving up points. They have given up 3 less points than the Bengals defense and .3 less per game. 

It's the offensive line that's mostly winning games for the Browns. 

Fair, but they also have a better run game than the Bengals, specifically run blocking OL.
All of their starting OL besides Wills has a run blocking grade of 70+.
The only starting OL on the Bengals that has that is Bobby Hart.

So if the Bengals want to be more like the Browns, they need OL who can run block better along with pass block. I doubt Hopkins ever gets there, as he's never been a good run blocker. Williams may, but he's not there right now. Spain has only had a run blocking grade of 70+ one year in his career - 2016, so I doubt he ever gets there either (assuming he's re-signed).

Thuney is consistently decent/solid in run blocking, but it's not his forte either.

I'm just trying to set the proper expectation that even with adding Sewell and Thuney, the running game may not become strong like it is with the Browns.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-03-2020, 02:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair, but they also have a better run game than the Bengals, specifically run blocking OL.
All of their starting OL besides Wills has a run blocking grade of 70+.
The only starting OL on the Bengals that has that is Bobby Hart.

So if the Bengals want to be more like the Browns, they need OL who can run block better along with pass block. I doubt Hopkins ever gets there, as he's never been a good run blocker. Williams may, but he's not there right now. Spain has only had a run blocking grade of 70+ one year in his career - 2016, so I doubt he ever gets there either (assuming he's re-signed).

Thuney is consistently decent/solid in run blocking, but it's not his forte either.

I'm just trying to set the proper expectation that even with adding Sewell and Thuney, the running game may not become strong like it is with the Browns.

It’s definitely never going to be as good as the Browns. They have the best 0ne-two punch at RB in the league.

[*Synric*]

(12-03-2020, 02:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair, but they also have a better run game than the Bengals, specifically run blocking OL.
All of their starting OL besides Wills has a run blocking grade of 70+.
The only starting OL on the Bengals that has that is Bobby Hart.

So if the Bengals want to be more like the Browns, they need OL who can run block better along with pass block. I doubt Hopkins ever gets there, as he's never been a good run blocker. Williams may, but he's not there right now. Spain has only had a run blocking grade of 70+ one year in his career - 2016, so I doubt he ever gets there either (assuming he's re-signed).

Thuney is consistently decent/solid in run blocking, but it's not his forte either.

I'm just trying to set the proper expectation that even with adding Sewell and Thuney, the running game may not become strong like it is with the Browns.

Any run blocking would be an improvement. The Bengals offense is handicapped because of their run game. Its actually a point in Joe Burrow's favor that he has looked as good as he has without a run game to lean against.

Edit: I'm more in a line of going after Larry Warford over Joe Thuney too.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(12-03-2020, 02:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair, but they also have a better run game than the Bengals, specifically run blocking OL.
All of their starting OL besides Wills has a run blocking grade of 70+.
The only starting OL on the Bengals that has that is Bobby Hart.

So if the Bengals want to be more like the Browns, they need OL who can run block better along with pass block. I doubt Hopkins ever gets there, as he's never been a good run blocker. Williams may, but he's not there right now. Spain has only had a run blocking grade of 70+ one year in his career - 2016, so I doubt he ever gets there either (assuming he's re-signed).

Thuney is consistently decent/solid in run blocking, but it's not his forte either.

I'm just trying to set the proper expectation that even with adding Sewell and Thuney, the running game may not become strong like it is with the Browns.

But the Bengals dont need to be like the browns. The Bengals drafted a QB that doesn’t need to have a top 10 running game. He DOES need his running game to be effective so he can keep defenses honest, but he isn’t Baker Mayfield, the worst qb in the AFC North.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 02:21 PM)Synric Wrote: Any run blocking would be an improvement. The Bengals offense is handicapped because of their run game. Its actually a point in Joe Burrow's favor that he has looked as good as he has without a run game to lean against.

Yes, agreed. I don't want the offense to pass 40 times a game on average. The Browns are 31st in the league in pass attempts per game. I know the Bengals will never to be able to do that little, but I'd like to maybe get closer to the middle and run the ball more. A better defense should help that along with a better OL.

[*Synric*]

(12-03-2020, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, agreed. I don't want the offense to pass 40 times a game on average. The Browns are 31st in the league in pass attempts per game. I know the Bengals will never to be able to do that little, but I'd like to maybe get closer to the middle and run the ball more. A better defense should help that along with a better OL.

I'm not saying disregard the defense. 

If they spend money on outside free agents I just think Offensive Guard is the obvious choice. I'm all for Larry Warford in stripes in 2021. Warford just fits...scheme, need, price tag etc.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 02:24 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: But the Bengals dont need to be like the browns. The Bengals drafted a QB that doesn’t need to have a top 10 running game. He DOES need his running game to be effective so he can keep defenses honest, but he isn’t Baker Mayfield, the worst qb in the AFC North.

Right, but to be a good team, you need to at least have either a good running game or a good defense.
PIT and BAL both have Top 10 defenses. CLE has a Top 10 running game.
It's too difficult to win consistently if you're having to pass 40 times a game and put up 30+ points every game.

I just worry the fans are going to be disappointed next year if the team has yet another terrible defense but also a bad running game.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 02:31 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm not saying disregard the defense. 

If they spend money on outside free agents I just think Offensive Guard is the obvious choice. I'm all for Larry Warford in stripes in 2021. Warford just fits...scheme, need, price tag etc.

If Warford really is still only seeking $7 mill per year like he was back last offseason before he opted out, then yes I agree. I think Warford at $7 mill makes more sense than Thuney at $14-15 mill.

[samhain]

(12-03-2020, 02:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If Warford really is still only seeking $7 mill per year like he was back last offseason before he opted out, then yes I agree. I think Warford at $7 mill makes more sense than Thuney at $14-15 mill.

I think the Thuney talk is a waste of time.  Zero chance this team pays 14 mil for a guard.  A guy in the Warford range or a draft pick is much more likely.  The Bengals have many needs this offseason, and they are all at big money positions.  DE, corner, OT, OG, even possibly receiver.  Looking at that laundry list makes me believe that the chances of them going after the highest-priced OG on the market are even less than I expected, and I expected them to be 0.  

[*bfine32*]

(12-03-2020, 02:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If Warford really is still only seeking $7 mill per year like he was back last offseason before he opted out, then yes I agree. I think Warford at $7 mill makes more sense than Thuney at $14-15 mill.

I could see our old friend Kevin Zietler being a cap casualty with NYG. They'll save $12 Mil in cap by cutting him.

[samhain]

Also, along the argument for Sewell/draft pick allocation lines, I'd like to see the team spend any big free agent money on a pass rusher. The early round DEs aren't of a particularly high quality from what I can tell. Even Rousseau has his question marks, the main ones being relative rawness and inexperience.

Pass rush is an obvious need, and if you can spend 14 mil on a Thuney or 15 on a guy like Scherff, then just chip in an extra million or 2 for a Melvin Ingram or a Yannick Ngakoue. Ingram is my personal preference, but I'm just giving examples. Investing in a FA rushers makes it easier to spend that top pick on a OL or even a WR like Chase if need be without worrying about neglecting another obvious need. I think that's how they get the most bang for their buck. You can still draft a 3rd rounder like Tyron if available, but be less dependent on a 3rd round rookie to generate your missing pass rush, which is an insane expectation, really.

I'd even sign a high dollar DE in lieu of bringing back Lawson. Lawson will get at least 8 mil per, and while he's nice, he's a one-trick pony. Keep the 8 mil and put it into a big contract for a proven game-wrecker.

Do this, draft Sewell, get a corner or G in 2, and hopefully you have enough high-end talent added to make a difference.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-03-2020, 02:21 PM)Synric Wrote: Any run blocking would be an improvement. The Bengals offense is handicapped because of their run game. Its actually a point in Joe Burrow's favor that he has looked as good as he has without a run game to lean against.

Edit: I'm more in a line of going after Larry Warford over Joe Thuney too.

I think we need to get out of the RB game thinking of the old days.. great example was last night with Steelers. Ben is having a great season with 24 TD and 5 ints going into last nite game but rating is just around 100 because of short passing.. most teams have replaced probably 5 to 10 plays a game running with short passing.. ZT and Burrow are put of the new way.. Joe had tons of completions but only a 89 rating mostly because of throwing so many short completions.  

Browns are a rarity in todays game.. we are not going to revamp our team into the Browns especially if we feel Burrow is that much better than Mayfield..

[*ochocincos*]

(12-03-2020, 05:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I could see our old friend Kevin Zietler being a cap casualty with NYG. They'll save $12 Mil in cap by cutting him.

I'd be down for bringing him back, but would he want to play in Cincinnati again? I thought I recalled something back when he signed with CLE that the Bengals basically put forth a joke of an offer. 

[Jpoore]

(12-02-2020, 11:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Oh, in the span of 10 hours the Bengals have gone from $0 cap space in 2021 to $41M. And $18M of that projected $41M comes from not using the franchise tag on Green. According to Over The Cap, there will only be 5 teams with more cap space than the Bengals.

Im talking 0 in terms of signing outside free agents. After rollover we have about 30 million. Essentially our entire special teams unit is a free agent not to mention the big names(bates, hubbard, Lawson, wj3, Alexander, even Mike Daniels) after we resign then we’ll be extremely tight on money.

(12-02-2020, 11:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The tag doesn't "free up" $18 mill. The Bengals only currently are expected to have about $42 mill after rollover is brought into cap, as cap is expected to drop to $175 mill for the whole league. AJ's $18 mill is not factored into that $42 mill.

The Bengals have 30 upcoming FAs including:
WJ3
Carl Lawson
Shawn Williams
AJ Green
John Ross
Mike Thomas
Alex Erickson
Quinton Spain
Alex Redmond
Josh Bynes
Randy Bullock
Kevin Huber
Clark Harris
Brandon Wilson
Xavier Williams
Mackensie Alexander
Leshaun Sims

Obviously, we probably don't want most back, but the point is that's A LOT of roster spots to fill. So that cap is going to get eaten fast, as you can't fill all those spots with just draft picks and the guys coming back from IR/opt out.

About $10 mill will be reserved for draft picks and injury reserve, so the Bengals really only have about $30 mill to work with. Their internal FAs are going to eat into that quite a bit. They may not have the ability to sign a big-name FA unless they make a big cut or two. Guys like Atkins, Hart, Uzomah could (or should) be on the chopping block.

With all that said, I will happily embrace the addition of Sewell and even a guard in Rd 2, but know that the defense is likely going to stay bottom of the barrel for another year. At least if Anarumo is in charge of it with no significant upgrades in FA or the draft.

This is what I was referencing cap wise.. we’ll be lucky to have 5 left over after that. I’m a huge Sewell fan who isn’t but i don’t like the idea of saying burrow u basically have to score a td every possession if u want to win a gable. That’s why I’m a fan of the trade back. But if we pick at 3 it’s gotta be sewell.

(12-02-2020, 11:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s why we need to make more cuts. If they draft Sewell then Hart should be an obvious one. Maybe Geno but I doubt they eat that dead money.

If we cut more then we really need to trade back and get note picks. Im not okay with running this dline out here next year minus Lawson and atkins

(12-03-2020, 12:09 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I mean at least this guy gives the posters something to argue about. He’s been wrong like every year too, so most likely we are going to see Sewell a Bengal next year.

Go watch Voch Lombardis all 22 film on Sewell. He ass woops every player he blocks. A 6’6 340lb kid that zone blocks like a dream, pass blocking is already his biggest strength, and looks to hit people when run blocking. No, I don’t think you pass on a player who already has these elite skill sets and not even 20 yet.

You fire Turner and bring in a coach who can mold this player into the all pro he can be.

We are going to chase the best guards in FA. Paul Dehner has already went on record that after this season they are going to try to go get Thuney in FA. They ARE going to improve the line.

They desperately need to improve the pass rush. I think Anarumo will get fired after the season and they are going to try to bring in a coach with experience. I also think they can use another corner too.

Trade? The only team that can trade up with us in Miami in terms of draft capital. I don’t know if they will want to give up enough to move up to 3, but they may move to 4 or 5 for Chase.

I think Sewell is a Bengal unless the Jaguars want Sewell, then I think they take pass rush or Chase.

Voch also thinks Sewell is best at guard so u taking a guard at 3? And there is plenty of teams with draft capital. Not to mention always taking next years 1st. I’d take a 1 and 2 this year and 1 following year all day to move down 10 spots.

(12-03-2020, 02:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Wolfe and Ryan signed for a combined $9.5 mill for 2020.
Do we not think Ryan can play outside CB anymore? I know he's playing FS with the Giants this year, but I remember him being an outside CB for many years. 

Ryan said if memory serves correct he considers himself a safety and dosent want to be corner and is not a corner. That’s why he’s not playing corner for nyg

[Nicomo Cosca]

^Spaces guy, spaces.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(12-03-2020, 09:46 PM)Jpoore Wrote: If we cut more then we really need to trade back and get note picks. Im not okay with running this dline out here next year minus Lawson and atkins
Voch also thinks Sewell is best at guard so u taking a guard at 3? And there is plenty of teams with draft capital. Not to mention always taking next years 1st. I’d take a 1 and 2 this year and 1 following year all day to move down 10 spots.

Quinton Nelson says hold my beer.

He did not say he’s best at guard, you’re putting words in his mouth. He said START him at guard until he understands the nuances of tackle better then move him outside. A decent-good coach will coach him into better techniques and to be more aggressive with his hands. And no we aren’t getting 2 firsts and a 2 for this years 3 I don’t know where you’re getting these numbers from.