What's wrong with the offensive blocking?

[*ochocincos*]

It's no secret that the Bengals OL is not doing a good job blocking.

They only have one OL (100+ snaps) who has a 70+ pass blocking grade, and just one more with a 60+ pass blocking grade according to PFF.
Jonah Williams - 75.8
Trey Hopkins - 68.4

Hart and Adeniji are in the 50's, all the guards + Fred Johnson are in the 40's.

For run blocking, they have two OL (100+ snaps) who have 70+ run blocking grade, plus three more OL who have 60+ grade.
Hart - 75.1
Price - 71.1
Redmond - 69.9
Jordan - 63.4
Spain - 60.2

Williams, Adeniji, Hopkins, and Johnson are in the 50's for run blocking.

Despite having a better overall run blocking vs pass blocking grade, the run game is 26th in attempts, 30th in yards, 25th in TDs, 29th in YPA.

Numerous times, I've seen certain OL players just not block anyone in the pass game. Bobby Hart vs MIA is the most recent vivid example.

So what's the problem with the blocking, and how can it be realistically improved?
Is the scheme too complex for the players to execute well?
Are the players not talented enough to execute it?
Is Turner not teaching proper technique?
Is play calling favoring the pass too much vs the run?

I'm not very knowledgeable with OL blocking, but I see poor technique and a lot of zone blocking that I don't think this OL can pull off.
Most of the OL (specifically the guards and Hart) do not seem athletic enough, but the athletic guys like Williams and Hopkins do not seem powerful enough.
My thought is this blocking scheme needs to be simplified, and maybe move more to a man blocking scheme.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I’m going to go with the players aren’t very good?

[Wes Mantooth]

Hart's score can't be right. I was told by a knowledgable person, who listens to the games on the radio, that he's actually pretty decent at pass blocking.

Am I to believe the dozens of paid employees of PFF, who are assigned to study and put focus on to each and every play, over a guy who listens to Dave Lapham on the the radio?

C'mon now.

[CJD]

We saw some improvement heading into the Washington game, but I think when Burrow went down the entire team just stopped caring about playing anymore.

This past game they were truly atrocious. All the "progression" that ZT was talking about when he was trying to justify why he allowed Burrow to throw so many times behind that Oline has vanished and we're right back at the 5+ sacks per game Oline that we had to start the season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2020, 01:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's no secret that the Bengals OL is not doing a good job blocking.

They only have one OL (100+ snaps) who has a 70+ pass blocking grade, and just one more with a 60+ pass blocking grade according to PFF.
Jonah Williams - 75.8
Trey Hopkins - 68.4

Hart and Adeniji are in the 50's, all the guards + Fred Johnson are in the 40's.

For run blocking, they have two OL (100+ snaps) who have 70+ run blocking grade, plus three more OL who have 60+ grade.
Hart - 75.1
Price - 71.1
Redmond - 69.9
Jordan - 63.4
Spain - 60.2

Williams, Adeniji, Hopkins, and Johnson are in the 50's for run blocking.

Despite having a better overall run blocking vs pass blocking grade, the run game is 26th in attempts, 30th in yards, 25th in TDs, 29th in YPA.

Numerous times, I've seen certain OL players just not block anyone in the pass game. Bobby Hart vs MIA is the most recent vivid example.

So what's the problem with the blocking, and how can it be realistically improved?
Is the scheme too complex for the players to execute well?
Are the players not talented enough to execute it?
Is Turner not teaching proper technique?
Is play calling favoring the pass too much vs the run?

I'm not very knowledgeable with OL blocking, but I see poor technique and a lot of zone blocking that I don't think this OL can pull off.
Most of the OL (specifically the guards and Hart) do not seem athletic enough, but the athletic guys like Williams and Hopkins do not seem powerful enough.
My thought is this blocking scheme needs to be simplified, and maybe move more to a man blocking scheme.

There's a little bit of all of it at play....but the biggest issue is a talent deficiency.

[*bengalfan74*]

Williams is the only one I'll give any slack and I'm beginning to wonder about him ?

But the fact is the bulk of the rest just aren't that good, average at the very best. Then you add in everything else (bad scheme, bad coaching, bad playcalling, no chemistry - different line every game, and effort and motivation come into play)

Basically this Oline needs a total overhaul.

Price and Jordan are total busts. Hart is decent run blocker but this isn't 1975. Spain and XSF are probably backups at best. Johnson is a question mark ? A lot of people pimp Hopkins but he's only average. Redmond is hot garbage with way to many penalties.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 01:29 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Williams is the only one I'll give any slack and I'm beginning to wonder about him ?

But the fact is the bulk of the rest just aren't that good, average at the very best. Then you add in everything else (bad scheme, bad coaching, bad playcalling, no chemistry - different line every game, and effort and motivation come into play)

Basically this Oline needs a total overhaul.

Price and Jordan are total busts. Hart is decent run blocker but this isn't 1975. Spain and XSF are probably backups at best. Johnson is a question mark ? A lot of people pimp Hopkins but he's only average. Redmond is hot garbage with way to many penalties.

I know that would be ideal, but doing a complete overhaul with a whole new group of OL just isn't realistic.
So what can be done incrementally to make progress?

I feel like scheme change is the first thing that will result in improvement. Cater the scheme to the strengths of most of the players.
Then replace a few in the offseason to where your ultimate goal is.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 01:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m going to go with the players aren’t very good?

I would agree, but you think that's the only problem?

I think unless you get absolute studs at every OL position (which they won't), this scheme won't succeed like we want it to.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2020, 01:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I know that would be ideal, but doing a complete overhaul with a whole new group of OL just isn't realistic.
So what can be done incrementally to make progress?

I feel like scheme change is the first thing that will result in improvement. Cater the scheme to the strengths of most of the players.
Then replace a few in the offseason to where your ultimate goal is.

We're starting a guy at LG that's a PS player....most of our starters are backups around the league. You can get by with one or two players at that level, but not all of them. Does the scheme need work? Yes. We need new coaches? Yes. Most importantly, we need an infusion of legit talent. 

[Joelist]

Just watch them line up and watch the play and it is informative. The pad levels are too high and feet not properly set; as a result they don’t get leverage. On the snap they do not fire off forward to engage the defense; they either stand there waiting for defenders or backpedal right away. Mentally the never seem to pick up stunts or shifts which is a lot of why we constantly see unblocked defenders roar in.

A lot of this is poor coaching. The technique is bad and the blocking scheme is nonsensical. Turner AND all the OL assistants need to be replaced with legit coaches who teach a system that actually fits the players. Of the current group I suspect Jordan and Hart are the most in need of replacement. The rest of them under a real OL coach I think would surprise a lot of people.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-07-2020, 01:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would agree, but you think that's the only problem?

I think unless you get absolute studs at every OL position (which they won't), this scheme won't succeed like we want it to.

Definitely not the only problem. We have an OL coach who’s abusive to his players, and refuses to help them with technique. Not saying even the best coach could make these guys into world beaters, but I’m pretty sure a Bill Callahan or Dante Scarnecchia could do more with them than Jim freaking Turner.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-07-2020, 01:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I know that would be ideal, but doing a complete overhaul with a whole new group of OL just isn't realistic.
So what can be done incrementally to make progress?

I feel like scheme change is the first thing that will result in improvement. Cater the scheme to the strengths of most of the players.
Then replace a few in the offseason to where your ultimate goal is.

When I say complete overhaul I'm meaning 3 or 4 players this offseason. Couple more the next.

Let's say we bring in Sewell and another good prospect at guard in 3rd round. Get a vet good G/C in free agency, Williams comes back and does good, overhaul started.

Starting Oline next season Sewell, Spain, Vet FAC, Rookie G, Williams. Backups XSF, Adeniji, Hopkins, late draft pick, Johnson.

Shit can all the deadwood, Redmond, Hart, Jordan, Price

The following offseason another high round draft pick, another free agent pick up or cut from another team cap casualty. Like Wyche says this team is getting railed weekly because we're getting our asses handed to us in the trenches. It's got to be our offseason focus !

We can get 20 of the fastest receivers and RB's and DB's  in the world on this team and it will matter not if we can't gat better, a lot better on the O and D line.

[bengals67]

(12-07-2020, 02:09 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: When I say complete overhaul I'm meaning 3 or 4 players this offseason. Couple more the next.

Let's say we bring in Sewell and another good prospect at guard in 3rd round. Get a vet good G/C in free agency, Williams comes back and does good, overhaul started.

Starting Oline next season Sewell, Spain, Vet FAC, Rookie G, Williams. Backups XSF, Adeniji, Hopkins, late draft pick, Johnson.

Shit can all the deadwood, Redmond, Hart, Jordan, Price

The following offseason another high round draft pick, another free agent pick up or cut from another team cap casualty. Like Wyche says this team is getting railed weekly because we're getting our asses handed to us in the trenches. It's got to be our offseason focus !

We can get 20 of the fastest receivers and RB's and DB's  in the world on this team and it will matter not if we can't gat better, a lot better on the O and D line.

Great post.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 02:04 PM)Joelist Wrote: Just watch them line up and watch the play and it is informative. The pad levels are too high and feet not properly set; as a result they don’t get leverage. On the snap they do not fire off forward to engage the defense; they either stand there waiting for defenders or backpedal right away. Mentally the never seem to pick up stunts or shifts which is a lot of why we constantly see unblocked defenders roar in.

A lot of this is poor coaching. The technique is bad and the blocking scheme is nonsensical. Turner AND all the OL assistants need to be replaced with legit coaches who teach a system that actually fits the players. Of the current group I suspect Jordan and Hart are the most in need of replacement. The rest of them under a real OL coach I think would surprise a lot of people.

You hit on some great things that I have noticed too. Although I'm not going through and watching the same play multiple times in slow motion, so I am for sure missing some things.

You mention that a lot of this is poor coaching, and you mention there are mental issues happening. Do you feel that the blocking is too complex for these guys? If they are making mental mistakes so often, it seems they aren't fully understanding what they need to do and when.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2020, 02:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You hit on some great things that I have noticed too. Although I'm not going through and watching the same play multiple times in slow motion, so I am for sure missing some things.

You mention that a lot of this is poor coaching, and you mention there are mental issues happening. Do you feel that the blocking is too complex for these guys? If they are making mental mistakes so often, it seems they aren't fully understanding what they need to do and when.

On the Hart whiff, in particular, it looked like he turned him inside where he was supposed to have help from Jordan. Jordan was standing there watching Hopkins block his man. I think there's absolutely an issue with communication/knowing assignments. There's also a talent problem....when guys are getting shoved into the backfield and flat out getting beat.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 01:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: We're starting a guy at LG that's a PS player....most of our starters are backups around the league. You can get by with one or two players at that level, but not all of them. Does the scheme need work? Yes. We need new coaches? Yes. Most importantly, we need an infusion of legit talent. 

When you say starting a guy at LG that's a PS player, to whom are you referring?
Spain was a PS player, but he wouldn't be on the PS in a normal year. He'd be on the 53. And he was originally a starter with BUF.
Jordan has not been on the PS, but he definitely was not ready to be thrust into a starting role as a rookie. He realistically should have been the last IOL off the bench if he was on a team with a decent OL.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 02:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: On the Hart whiff, in particular, it looked like he turned him inside where he was supposed to have help from Jordan. Jordan was standing there watching Hopkins block his man. I think there's absolutely an issue with communication/knowing assignments. There's also a talent problem....when guys are getting shoved into the backfield and flat out getting beat.

Was it Jordan? I thought Spain was between Hopkins and Hart.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2020, 02:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Definitely not the only problem. We have an OL coach who’s abusive to his players, and refuses to help them with technique. Not saying even the best coach could make these guys into world beaters, but I’m pretty sure a Bill Callahan or Dante Scarnecchia could do more with them than Jim freaking Turner.

What kind of concerns me is the Bengals had the opportunity to get Bill Callahan and chose to stick with Turner another year instead.
Callahan would have had a chance to work with his son.

Do you think someone reached out to Bill to see if he would be interested and he turned them down (for whatever reason), and/or do you think the Bengals felt that Turner did enough good things toward the end of 2019 that they had optimism he would build off that improvement in 2020?

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-07-2020, 02:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: On the Hart whiff, in particular, it looked like he turned him inside where he was supposed to have help from Jordan. Jordan was standing there watching Hopkins block his man. I think there's absolutely an issue with communication/knowing assignments. There's also a talent problem....when guys are getting shoved into the backfield and flat out getting beat.

If we had access to the all 22 film for every play, I'm quite sure we would see several plays where Hart just seems at a loss as to what to do. I believe his football IQ just isn't that good.

Then add in the fact that there are plays where his effort is very questionable and it's a disaster. 

I don't doubt communication/scheme is part of the problem but damn how do you just let rushers pass you by time and time again and just holler lookout !

This last games example is not in any way an isolated event.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2020, 02:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: When you say starting a guy at LG that's a PS player, to whom are you referring?
Spain was a PS player, but he wouldn't be on the PS in a normal year. He'd be on the 53. And he was originally a starter with BUF.
Jordan has not been on the PS, but he definitely was not ready to be thrust into a starting role as a rookie. He realistically should have been the last IOL off the bench if he was on a team with a decent OL.

I'm referring to Jordan's performance... it's PS level..lol.