Is it all ZT?

[Bengalholic]

(12-11-2020, 04:26 PM)Jason_NC Wrote: I think it's difficult to judge Zac this year based on all the expected starters they have been without for so many games, and the development curve for rookies, and the steep drop from the 3 veterans they were expecting more from.  I still think he has a lot of growth he needs to do to become a good head coach, but he seems to have the mind and people skills to develop.  But can we afford to be patient with him.

I'm not sure how difficult it is to judge Zac once you consider all 3 first time head coaches hired this year have as many, or more, wins in 12 games than Zac has in 28. Zac is by far the worst first time HC hired in the last 2 years, and it's not even close.

[kalibengal]

agreed, hes cementing in a "losing culture" which as we all know is very difficult to get out of once you are there...(i.e. Lost 90s),
Marv got us out of it for a while there.... too bad MB and his family didnt know how to go to the next level.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2020, 04:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm sure the front office played a part for why the Bengals are not a desirable coaching destination.
However, Taylor seems responsible for:
- Which specific coaches he has
- Offensive playcalling
- Indirectly the defensive playcalling, defensive scheme, and OL blocking scheme

The Bengals could make some changes to attract better talent (both coaches and players), but there's really no way to think Taylor is only limited because of this front office until we actually see him elsewhere. Up to this point, he hasn't been successful with any role aside from QB coach.

One funny thing I hear fans say as 'A bunch of job openings this year. Many of the good candidates might be gone.'

When we hired Zac, we're the only team that considered him strongly as a HC. Same with Kingsbury for the Cardinals. And same with Flores with the Dolphins.

One year, the Colts thought they hired McDaniels and he left them at the alter and they hired Reich who was a good hire.

So, most HC's aren't necessarily the big name guys.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2020, 05:32 PM)kalibengal Wrote: agreed, hes cementing  in  a "losing culture" which as we all know is very difficult to get out of once you are there...(i.e. Lost 90s),
Marv got us out of it for a while there.... too bad MB and his family didnt know how to go to the next level.

I feel like keeping him and his staff for 1 more year could do like several more years of damage to this team. Some has already been done.

Don't think that he can't ruin Burrow's career. I know people will scoff at this, but it's possible.

[Bengalstripes9]

The fact of the matter is the culture was better with Marvin. The team did fall apart at the tail end of Marv's tenure, but that was mainly because of losing so many players. Even when they were losing, the team rallied around Marv (and we won more games than Zac has in 2 years). Right now half the team is all in with Zac, half not. You can't win if you're dividing the locker room with your presence, and get out-coached on a regular basis.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-11-2020, 01:00 PM)kalibengal Wrote: see link on ZT and past bengals coaches....begs the question: If Bengals had the legit infrastructure in place (GM, scouts etc) would we
want " Zack Back" as that ROMAN ED commercial dad says.
If ML lands a new gig next yr and starts tearing it up thats going to be painful....

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2020/12/11/22167799/zac-taylor-coaching-tenure-bengals-front-office-ownership-mike-brown

It all ends with the HC. Yes, he picked his coaches, he was stubborn enough to take on play calling duties has failed miserably and
has not handed over the reigns. He needs to go along with the coaches he picked period.

[Bengalholic]

(12-11-2020, 06:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It all ends with the HC. Yes, he picked his coaches, he was stubborn enough to take on play calling duties has failed miserably and
has not handed over the reigns. He needs to go along with the coaches he picked period.

Yep. Mike said they gave him what he wanted - 'We allowed him to have his way and tried to support him best we could'...and he's still failed miserably, so there's no one else to really blame at this point. He's the head coach, he's been allowed to call the shots, and it's ended up with embarrassing results.

[OBX Bengal]

I gave up on Taylor early in the season.  I don't have the patience to watch him blow through Burrow's rookie contract while learning to be a head coach. But a lot of the blame is on Tobin for hiring Taylor and for making a dozen personnel mistakes on the offensive line starting with the firing of Whitworth.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-11-2020, 07:09 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yep. Mike said they gave him what he wanted - 'We allowed him to have his way and tried to support him best we could'...and he's still failed miserably, so there's no one else to really blame at this point. He's the head coach, he's been allowed to call the shots, and it's ended up with embarrassing results.

True that, people want to blame MB rightfully so, but they just paid the most out in FA I can remember trying to help this guy.

I cannot blame MB and the FO as much this time around. I blame the coaches.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-11-2020, 07:09 PM)OBX Bengal Wrote: I gave up on Taylor early in the season.  I don't have the patience to watch him blow through Burrow's rookie contract while learning to be a head coach. But a lot of the blame is on Tobin for hiring Taylor and for making a dozen personnel mistakes on the offensive line starting with the firing of Whitworth.

They should fire Taylor and should have brought back Whit true, but they didn't fire Whit...

Just should of paid the man.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-11-2020, 01:41 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: It’s not all Zac, but he is a huge part of the blame. His game planning and play calling is atrocious... and as for Marvin tearing up the league, I wouldn’t be shocked at all if he wins plenty of 1:00 games. Now if he starts winning consistently in primetime and playoff games, then it will be nauseating

I don't understand this sudden love affair with Marvin. He had some of the best rosters in Bengal's history and never won a playoff game.  He also only performed when he had top tier assistants working for him....somethings ZT surely can't say.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2020, 04:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm not sure how difficult it is to judge Zac once you consider all 3 first time head coaches hired this year have as many, or more, wins in 12 games than Zac has in 28. Zac is by far the worst first time HC hired in the last 2 years, and it's not even close.

I feel like some people only watch the Bengals and dont see that other teams constantly have injuries too. We will never be totally healthy. No team will be.

Tomlin went 8-8 with no Roethlisberger. The Packers won a SB some years back missing like 8 or so starters.

So injuries to AJ Green and Jonah were excuses for failure last year, well they're back this year along with Burrow, Higgins, and a bunch of others. Some 8 new starting caliber players and we're still bad...and some posters think it's because of a couple key injuries.

[Pat5775]

(12-12-2020, 08:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't understand this sudden love affair with Marvin. He had some of the best rosters in Bengal's history and never won a playoff game.  He also only performed when he had top tier assistants working for him....somethings ZT surely can't say.

I guess two years of the Zac Taylor experience will make some long for the mediocre-yet-subpar Marvin Lewis years

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 11:02 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I guess two years of the Zac Taylor experience will make some long for the mediocre-yet-subpar Marvin Lewis years

Taylor, Shula, Coslett, and Lebeau all failed miserably under this ownership team.

Marvin atleast took the team to respectability.

Maybe under different ownership, he would have thrived?

[Pat5775]

(12-12-2020, 11:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Taylor, Shula, Coslett, and Lebeau all failed miserably under this ownership team.

Marvin atleast took the team to respectability.

Maybe under different ownership, he would have thrived?

Possibly, but I doubt it. Marvin’s biggest problems were coaching on game day, only when he had good-to-great assistant coaches did his teams thrive.

[BengalsRocker]

It's the combo of ZT paired with Bengals management/ownership.

1. Neither one has enough clout to bring in competent coaching at this point. ZT is not intriguing enough and lacks connections/experience.

2. Mixed messages. They talk about changing culture "New Dey" and such but instead hire guys like Turner and Lou. Taylor sits on his hands and lets animosity build within the team and from what's being reported TERRIBLE communication skills.

3. Duke Tobin blows and is here to stay.

4. Taylor doesn't have a record of success anywhere as a leader. You can blame the Front Office here as much as ZT himself. The results we are seeing are from poor vetting of a HC prospect.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 11:18 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Possibly, but I doubt it. Marvin’s biggest problems were coaching on game day, only when he had good-to-great assistant coaches did his teams thrive.

Were they? I saw even our best rosters with major holes at C and MLB. I saw cap space. I never saw those addressed.

For drafts, I saw picks used to replace guys that would be too costly to keep in free agency 1-2 years down the road and a lot of misses.

That 2015 team...MANY owners and GMs would have addressed C and MLB. Here they said good enough and wrote that Model Model article and patted themselves on the back like they created a system to be good for 10+ years.

Well, weve been bad for what 5 years? And it feels like we can go lower...maybe not in wins, but Zac can destroy Burrow.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 11:39 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: It's the combo of ZT paired with Bengals management/ownership.

1. Neither one has enough clout to bring in competent coaching at this point. ZT is not intriguing enough and lacks connections/experience.

2. Mixed messages. They talk about changing culture "New Dey" and such but instead hire guys like Turner and Lou. Taylor sits on his hands and lets animosity build within the team and from what's being reported TERRIBLE communication skills.

3. Duke Tobin blows and is here to stay.

4. Taylor doesn't have a record of success anywhere as a leader. You can blame the Front Office here as much as ZT himself.  The results we are seeing are from poor vetting of a HC prospect.

Yeah. Taylor has failed everywhere he was made an OC. I'd say hes a qb coach in the NFL. Maybe a D2 HC.

The Bengals heaped McVays qualities on Taylor and he has none of them. None.

Only way hes even average here is if Burrow carries him...but I think hes closer to dragging Burrow down.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-12-2020, 12:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah. Taylor has failed everywhere he was made an OC. I'd say hes a qb coach in the NFL. Maybe a D2 HC.

The Bengals heaped McVays qualities on Taylor and he has none of them. None.

Only way hes even average here is if Burrow carries him...but I think hes closer to dragging Burrow down.

See that's the issue.

Coaching such a tiny position group is a huge difference than HC/OC/DC.

If Zac would have shown success in his OC stints it would have given him something to stand on.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(12-12-2020, 10:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I feel like some people only watch the Bengals and dont see that other teams constantly have injuries too. We will never be totally healthy. No team will be.

Tomlin went 8-8 with no Roethlisberger. The Packers won a SB some years back missing like 8 or so starters.

So injuries to AJ Green and Jonah were excuses for failure last year, well they're back this year along with Burrow, Higgins, and a bunch of others. Some 8 new starting caliber players and we're still bad...and some posters think it's because of a couple key injuries.

I do follow the rest of the league (meticulously) and I would say it's more than a handful of injuries. It's precisely the fact that *everybody* we're devoting cap space to is either injured or suddenly stinks. I can't blame Taylor for the fact that AJ and Geno fell off a cliff. We spent like crazy to help him, but what happened to those "8 new starting caliber players?" Waynes down. Reader down. XSF down. Bynes stayed healthy but let's face it, he was a bridge to the new LBs, not a difference maker. I know many on this board will disagree with me about Dunlap, but I can't pin that on him either (I blame it entirely on Dunlap). 

Folks will say Taylor's low winning % is unprecedented, but I would also say having literally every difference making player on your team either succumb to age or get hurt is unprecedented. You bring up Pittsburgh going 8-8. Yes, if we had Pittsburgh's defense and won 2 games I'd agree with you. But if Roethlisberger went down AND everybody they pay real NFL money to went down, yes, they'd be at the bottom of the division. And the money thing matters because when those guys go down, you're trying to beat other NFL teams without difference-making players. I don't remember who those players Green Bay lost were, but were they all injuries to the top of their roster? 

There ARE some things I blame Taylor for: He over-exposed Burrow behind an OL that wasn't up to the task. I'd wager a lot that the front office is ripping him a new one for this as we speak. He hired unqualified coaches, and while this was partially because he was hired late in the cycle he has not (yet) replaced them. But the question for me isn't whether these were mistakes, but whether we can categorize them as the "growing pains" we knew we'd have when we hired a young, inexperienced head coach. The whole concept of "growing pain" is that you learn from them and get better as a result, and while I don't love Taylor (never have) I'm willing to see if he'll grow from them. 

My usual disclaimer: I never wanted to hire Taylor because I didn't want these growing pains. But here we are going through them, and we might as well see what's one the other side. I'm not defending Taylor so much as I'm preaching patience. If he makes no changes to his staff this offseason (and definitely if his naive scheming gets Joe hurt again) I'll lose the last scraps of faith I have left in him. I'm not devoted to Taylor, just trying to point out that what he's had stacked against him is yes, far more than the typical injuries most teams go through.