I'm optimistic

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-20-2020, 01:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I feel like it would be a perfect fit too. Well, assuming there is a scheme fit.

Guards are VERY important in the modern NFL. The Bengals are still stuck on thinking Tackles are the premium position.

That said, the Browns upgraded their line and started to win this year. The Bengals seem to copy teams in the division, so hopefully they take notice of that.

I wonder if Alexander is interested in coming back? Might depend on coaches.

The Patriots are projected to have $94 million in cap space. They may tag Thuney.

They tagged him this year, and I think it is very cost prohibitive to do it a second time.  They may extend him, instead.

That being said, I hear what you are saying about the guard position, but I think they always felt the same way about the DT position.  When was the last time they used a top 50 pick on a DT?  Well, they signed DJ Reader to a nice contract so maybe that shows a bit of a shift at the interior positions.  

[THE PISTONS]

(12-21-2020, 10:40 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: They tagged him this year, and I think it is very cost prohibitive to do it a second time.  They may extend him, instead.

That being said, I hear what you are saying about the guard position, but I think they always felt the same way about the DT position.  When was the last time they used a top 50 pick on a DT?  Well, they signed DJ Reader to a nice contract so maybe that shows a bit of a shift at the interior positions.  

I'm hoping they changed their view.

Man wouldn't it have just been easier to keep Zeitler? We've had to endure poor Guard play since he left.

I get letting Whitworth go because of age and tackles usually declining at his age, but Zeitler was like 26-27. We used a 1st Round pick on him. Playing at a high level. And they lowballed him. I wonder if they offered him a fair extension price if he would have signed it BEFORE DeCastro signed his.

[thillan]

Man, I want to be. But Burrow being 24 already kinda sucks. Worst case scenario we are facing right now. We could flip it, but we have to make a lot of moves this off-season, probably too many for this FO.

The Jets winning also sucks too, as now I worry they might focus on a new HC first to pair with Darnold and invest in Sewell.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2020, 10:54 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm hoping they changed their view.

Man wouldn't it have just been easier to keep Zeitler? We've had to endure poor Guard play since he left.

I get letting Whitworth go because of age and tackles usually declining at his age, but Zeitler was like 26-27. We used a 1st Round pick on him. Playing at a high level. And they lowballed him. I wonder if they offered him a fair extension price if he would have signed it BEFORE DeCastro signed his.

That's been my belief regarding Zeitler, and I think that's what they should have done. Bungaled all the way there....

[XenoMorph]

(12-19-2020, 09:24 PM)Benton Wrote: I get the angst and anger over this season. It's been a rough two years. And just when we looked like we were about to turn a corner, things got worse.

But I've got to admit, I'm optimistic about next season for a couple reasons.

1. Burrow. He was looking good when he went down and with the way things are, he's likely to come back around the start of the season as healthy as before.

2. Coordinators. Head coaching aside (and I realize in a few posts this is going to devolve into "we ain't going anywhere with ZT driving"), one of our biggest issues has been the coordinators. I don't see any way a few of the worst aren't gone.

But the big thing is...

3. Drafting. Our last draft was the best in a long time. And not just because we got Joe. Tee is looking good. Wilson is heading in the right direction. Akeem is going to take some time, but he's going to be decent. The rest, who knows? But the last I felt like we had four good picks by the end of the season was 2013. With another high pick and ZT's second year with the draft, I think we'll do good again.

4. FA. Last offseason we were aggressive for the first time in a long time. And this year, we're 5th or 6th overall in money available. I think we'll continue the spend (we've got a while before we have to worry about big resigning contracts).

problem with your 2 is that Zach is a coordinator...  So and he wont replace himself or lower his responsibilities which means he doesnt have the IQ needed to press forward.

Having talent does nothing without the proper coaches to use it lol

[masonbengals fan]

I was optimistic at the beginning of this season but that has completely been eradicated. Not sure if we will ever get over the hump if there isn't massive changes to the way the organization is run & sadly I don't see that happening.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-21-2020, 10:54 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm hoping they changed their view.

Man wouldn't it have just been easier to keep Zeitler? We've had to endure poor Guard play since he left.

I get letting Whitworth go because of age and tackles usually declining at his age, but Zeitler was like 26-27. We used a 1st Round pick on him. Playing at a high level. And they lowballed him. I wonder if they offered him a fair extension price if he would have signed it BEFORE DeCastro signed his.

Zeitler wasn't worth anywhere near the $12 million Cleveland gave him.  They realized that.  I wouldn't have paid him that, either.  He was never a top tier guard.  Whitworth was probably, as much as people hate to hear this, the right decision.  Numbers don't lie.  How many vets fall off a cliff at his age?  Almost all.  They had to see what they had and could develop with their first and second round picks (Ogbuehi and Fisher, puke).   He proved them (and everyone) wrong.  Maybe he was that good because he was that anxious to prove himself, or he felt rejuvenate in a new team.  Sad thing is, the offensive line wasn't that  good when he and Zeitler were here before they left.  

All history now.  And if they don't want to pony up on Thuney, I would hope they would use a fairly high draft pick on the interior of the offensive line and that pick could be used on a DT.  SIgning Thuney opens up so many things.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2020, 01:28 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Zeitler wasn't worth anywhere near the $12 million Cleveland gave him.  They realized that.  I wouldn't have paid him that, either.  He was never a top tier guard.  Whitworth was probably, as much as people hate to hear this, the right decision.  Numbers don't lie.  How many vets fall off a cliff at his age?  Almost all.  They had to see what they had and could develop with their first and second round picks (Ogbuehi and Fisher, puke).   He proved them (and everyone) wrong.  Maybe he was that good because he was that anxious to prove himself, or he felt rejuvenate in a new team.  Sad thing is, the offensive line wasn't that  good when he and Zeitler were here before they left.  

All history now.  And if they don't want to pony up on Thuney, I would hope they would use a fairly high draft pick on the interior of the offensive line and that pick could be used on a DT.  SIgning Thuney opens up so many things.  

Right , he wasn't worth the 12 mil. However, had they never let him test the waters and extended him the year *prior*, they may not have had to pay anywhere near that. That's the point Pistons and myself are alluding to.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-21-2020, 11:26 AM)Wyche Wrote: That's been my belief regarding Zeitler, and I think that's what they should have done. Bungaled all the way there....

The thing is, and people do this in life...they save money on something, and then they'll buy 2-3 of an item that adds up to more than if they just bought a good item.

Look at what we spent on line that didn't work out in the way of draft picks, and the Glenn's and Jon Millers. (Although I think waiving Jon Miller was a MISTAKE.) Not really sure why they did it. Miller was an average lineman which is better than a bad one.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-21-2020, 01:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right , he wasn't worth the 12 mil. However, had they never let him test the waters and extended him the year *prior*, they may not have had to pay anywhere near that. That's the point Pistons and myself are alluding to.

Indeed. They offered him a pretty low offer from what I recall...like around what Boling got. Then, once DeCastro signed, it was done. DeCastro's play has fallen off a cliff by the way.

On the $12 million a year for Zeitler, yeah it was steep. But, he was a Top 10 Guard. He worked in our scheme. Now, $12 million for a Guard doesn't look terrible. He's been productive and relatively durable over that time.

Burrow got hurt as MJ gave up what 7 pressures that game and one shredded his knee. I'd gladly pay that $12 million.

Would paying Zeitler $12 million be more of an overpay than giving Waynes the contract we did?

EVERY year in free agency, it looks like players get overpaid, but the cap goes up by what 10% every year....so they're salaries escalate proportionally.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2020, 01:38 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The thing is, and people do this in life...they save money on something, and then they'll buy 2-3 of an item that adds up to more than if they just bought a good item.

Look at what we spent on line that didn't work out in the way of draft picks, and the Glenn's and Jon Millers. (Although I think waiving Jon Miller was a MISTAKE.) Not really sure why they did it. Miller was an average lineman which is better than a bad one.

I see people do that a lot...lol.

I'm not sure why Miller was sent packing either.

(12-21-2020, 01:42 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. They offered him a pretty low offer from what I recall...like around what Boling got. Then, once DeCastro signed, it was done. DeCastro's play has fallen off a cliff by the way.

On the $12 million a year for Zeitler, yeah it was steep. But, he was a Top 10 Guard. He worked in our scheme. Now, $12 million for a Guard doesn't look terrible. He's been productive and relatively durable over that time.

Burrow got hurt as MJ gave up what 7 pressures that game and one shredded his knee. I'd gladly pay that $12 million.

Would paying Zeitler $12 million be more of an overpay than giving Waynes the contract we did?

EVERY year in free agency, it looks like players get overpaid, but the cap goes up by what 10% every year....so they're salaries escalate proportionally.

Truth, the market is always changing. I mean, yeah, 12 mil was a little high then, but maybe 10 gets it done the year before? Like you, I'd rather have spent the cash. Even at the high end of the spectrum. You're not going to find many Clint Bolings in the 4th round. He was graded as high as a 2nd rounder coming out, and fell. That's a gamble that doesn't always pan out. Look at our current 4th round G.

[bengals67]

(12-19-2020, 10:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is possible for this front office to build a championship team.  Before the Steeler game where Dalton got injured the Bengals were 10-2 with three wins against playoff teams (Sea, KC, Pitt)  We had the number 4 scoring offense and NUMBER ONE scoring defense.  That was a legitimate championship level team.  

The 2005 team did not have much defense, but that offense was pretty sick.  That offense line was elite.  It could have been the best in the league if they could have played together a while, but the very next year ('06) Braham and Levi Jones both had career altering injuries.  Then the next year Willie Anderson had a major injury that he never fully recovered from.  Mike Brown had just given all of those guys big contract extensions.  Levi and Willie were the highest paid tackle duo in the league.  That offense was set to be good for quite a few years, but the o-line was gutted in less than a year-and-a-half.

So that is at least two championship contender level teams in the last 15 years.

I believe we have the hardest piece to find with Burrow at QB.  But I have zero faith in anyone on our coaching staff.

If they clean house and bring in some better coaches I think we can have a contender again within a year or two,

Great summary

No contender ever, much less 2 years, without the house cleaning.

Goes without saying but no other team in pro sports or any major college team would keep this staff or the personnel department as structured.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-21-2020, 01:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: I see people do that a lot...lol.

I'm not sure why Miller was sent packing either.


Truth, the market is always changing. I mean, yeah, 12 mil was a little high then, but maybe 10 gets it done the year before? Like you, I'd rather have spent the cash. Even at the high end of the spectrum. You're not going to find many Clint Bolings in the 4th round. He was graded as high as a 2nd rounder coming out, and fell. That's a gamble that doesn't always pan out. Look at our current 4th round G.

Right

The Bengals are almost always reactive instead of proactive. They should have moved on from the AJ, Dalton, Dunlap, Geno team and started over. They should have been proactive but MB and his loyalty ya know.

[Wes Mantooth]

No doubt in my mind had the inked Zeitler a year before he hit free agency it would have been at 10 or less.

The highest paid right guard in the league in 2016 (the year before Zeitler left and what they would have used to set his market) in terms of cap spent was J.R. Sweezy at 9.5 mil. And even he was on average deal of 6.5 per, and that was his highest paid season.

The highest paid left guard was Kelechi Osemele who was on an 11.7 millon dollar deal. The rest were all under 7 mil cap hit for 2016.

Player contracts when they hit the open market are always inflated. It's a simple supply and demand situation. The supply is extremely low and the demand is extremely high. Teams will overpay for that missing piece to win out over competing offers.

Had we offered Zeitler early, like the Steelers did with Decastro, we would have seen a much lesser number. Remember, Decastro signed for just under 10 million. And when Decastro signed he was coming off an All Pro season. Zeitler hadn't made a Pro Bowl at that point..

IMHO, you extend the year early, prior to the 2016 season, and you're most likely look at a 7.5 to 9.5 mil average on a deal, depending on guarantees. You get a nice price for early security for the players, before the market resets, and with you only competing against yourself for his services.

For whatever reason, they chose not to pay. I think the obvious question becomes: If you don't value a Guard enough to pay them near top dollar then why did you value a Guard enough to take them in the first round in the first place?

It makes no sense. Zeilter lived up to his draft position, and to expectations. Yet we had no long term plans for him. Stupid.

Making matters even worse is, we elected to pay Dre Kirkpatrick 11 million dollars a season that very same offseason offseason. This is a guy who didn't even start until year 4! He never looked the part of an elite corner. Yet we ponied up the money for him and just let Zeitler walk.

2 guys from the very same 2012 draft class. Both first rounders. We paid the near-bust, and let the guy who started from day 1 hit free agency. Duke Tobin should be fired for this move alone.

[fredtoast]

(12-21-2020, 02:01 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  They should have moved on from the AJ, Dalton, Dunlap, Geno team and started over. 

Teams that are "starting over" don't create huge new holes to fill.

Coming into the 2019 season Geno Atkins was coming off a ten sack season and his 5th straight Pro Bowl.  How does a re-building team replace a guy like that?  From 2014 through 2018 Dunlap was 4th in the league in QB hits and 11th in sacks.  Again, how does a re-building team replace that type of production.  Before Green got injured in 2018 he was 8th in the league in receiving yards and 4th in td receptions through the first 8 games.  He was on pace for 1374 yards and 12 tds.  Again, this is not the type of talent to throw away when trying to build a winner.

Look at how the Forty-niners went from 4 wins in '18 to 12 in '19.  They did not trade or cut older productive players like Richard Sherman, Joe Staley, or Michael Person.  Instead they kept them to re-build around.

Too many fans think is is simple to just replace all of these productive vets with cheap free agents or middle round draft picks.  That just is not true.  The 2019 Bengls had holes all over their roster and it would not have been wise to just create a few more before they even started re-building.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2020, 02:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: No doubt in my mind had the inked Zeitler a year before he hit free agency it would have been at 10 or less.

The highest paid right guard in the league in 2016 (the year before Zeitler left and what they would have used to set his market) in terms of cap spent was J.R. Sweezy at 9.5 mil.  And even he was on average deal of 6.5 per, and that was his highest paid season.

The highest paid left guard was Kelechi Osemele who was on an 11.7 millon dollar deal.  The rest were all under 7 mil cap hit for 2016.

Player contracts when they hit the open market are always inflated.  It's a simple supply and demand situation.  The supply is extremely low and the demand is extremely high.  Teams will overpay for that missing piece to win out over competing offers.

Had we offered Zeitler early, like the Steelers did with Decastro, we would have seen a much lesser number.  Remember, Decastro signed for just under 10 million.  And when Decastro signed he was coming off an All Pro season.  Zeitler hadn't made a Pro Bowl at that point..

IMHO, you extend the year early, prior to the 2016 season, and you're most likely look at a 7.5 to 9.5 mil average on a deal, depending on guarantees.  You get a nice price for early security for the players, before the market resets, and with you only competing against yourself for his services.

For whatever reason, they chose not to pay.  I think the obvious question becomes: If you don't value a Guard enough to pay them near top dollar then why did you value a Guard enough to take them in the first round in the first place?

It makes no sense.  Zeilter lived up to his draft position, and to expectations.  Yet we had no long term plans for him.  Stupid.

Making matters even worse is, we elected to pay Dre Kirkpatrick 11 million dollars a season that very same offseason offseason.  This is  a guy who didn't even start until year 4!  He never looked the part of an elite corner.  Yet we ponied up the money for him and just let Zeitler walk.

2 guys from the very same 2012 draft class.  Both first rounders.  We paid the near-bust, and let the guy who started from day 1 hit free agency.  Duke Tobin should be fired for this move alone.

Abso-damn-lutely! I couldn't remember the numbers floating around at the time...but looking back, I also feel like we could've had him for under 10 mil. I had also forgotten that Dre was extended that off-season. They could've swapped players to extend, and saved around 2 mil to boot! Frickin insanity I tell ya.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-21-2020, 01:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right , he wasn't worth the 12 mil. However, had they never let him test the waters and extended him the year *prior*, they may not have had to pay anywhere near that. That's the point Pistons and myself are alluding to.

I get that, and it makes sense in hindsight but I didn't think Zeitler was worth 9-10 million either.  He was an above-average RG in the NFL.  Between the two, I would have rather had Whitworth.  I thought Whit would move inside and finish his career at guard.  Then, he could still be our leader and help teach the young guys.  I was dead wrong.  

Oh well.  The could get the best guard (next to Quinten Nelson) for the next four years and I would do everything to try and make that happen.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2020, 06:24 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I get that, and it makes sense in hindsight but I didn't think Zeitler was worth 9-10 million either.  He was an above-average RG in the NFL.  Between the two, I would have rather had Whitworth.  I thought Whit would move inside and finish his career at guard.  Then, he could still be our leader and help teach the young guys.  I was dead wrong.  

Oh well.  The could get the best guard (next to Quinten Nelson) for the next four years and I would do everything to try and make that happen.  

That's fair. I think KZ could been had for less than 9. IF the team had done their due diligence replacing him, this wouldn't be a discussion to be honest. 

The ONLY thing that irked me about the Whitworth deal was we had seen just how bad Ogbuehi was. I kinda felt we shoulda tagged Whit until we found someone at least serviceable. 

[fredtoast]

(12-21-2020, 02:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: IMHO, you extend the year early, prior to the 2016 season, and you're most likely look at a 7.5 to 9.5 mil average on a deal,

(12-21-2020, 06:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's fair. I think KZ could been had for less than 9.

You guys have no idea what you are talking about.

I realize potential free agents will take a little less instead of risking an injury, but not 30% to 40% less on the what will be the biggest contract of his entire career.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2020, 10:54 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm hoping they changed their view.

Man wouldn't it have just been easier to keep Zeitler? We've had to endure poor Guard play since he left.

I get letting Whitworth go because of age and tackles usually declining at his age, but Zeitler was like 26-27. We used a 1st Round pick on him. Playing at a high level. And they lowballed him. I wonder if they offered him a fair extension price if he would have signed it BEFORE DeCastro signed his.

I can somewhat see the appeal of bringing Alexander back, but what about bringing Willie Anderson in as OL coach?
He currently trains OL between high school, college, and NFL at his academy, Willie Anderson Lineman Academy.