Props to our return men

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 01:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So just remember that.  6th of 14, not 6th out of 32.  If you remove the qualifier, and sort by all punt returners he actually ranks 22nd.

22 out of 81 is still pretty good.  About top quarter of the league.

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 01:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   These stats also don't include fair catches he makes where there's room in front of him, and he elects to signal.

(12-31-2020, 01:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Throw in the fair catches when he's got tons of room 

Where does he rank in the league in this category?

Who is best in the league?

Who is the worst?

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-31-2020, 01:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Where does he rank in the league in this category?

Who is best in the league?

Who is the worst?

Don't know, don't care.

I'm not stats and numbers obsessed like you.  I don't need rankings for every single thing to form an opinion. 

I simply watch Alex Erickson play and judge his performance.  It's not that hard to do. 

Guy makes a fair catch and there's tons of room you might say "What the hell was that, that was stupid"  Guy does that multiple times over multiple years and you might make a mental note that this is somewhat of a trend, and a knock on his ability as a returner.

It never occurred to me to run on to the internet and try to find some website that somehow will magically let me sort "fair catches made in space".

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(12-31-2020, 01:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was looking but have not found the exact stats.  From what I have found it is hard to tell how the Bengals rank.  

NFL teams average 23 returns and 16 FC, but since since they also average 55 punts it is impossible to come up with a "fair catch percentage" because apparently almost 30% of punts are touchbacks, out-of-bounds, or downed by the cover team.

Bengals have 21 returns and 20 fair catches.  On the extremes you have the Jets with only 10 returns and 26 FC and the Dolphins with 31 returns and only 9 FC.  Only 7 teams have more FC than returns.  So it appears that the Bengals are toward the more conservative end of the spectrum, but closer to the middle than an extreme.

Thank you.

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 01:57 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not stats and numbers obsessed like you.  I don't need rankings for every single thing to form an opinion. 

I simply watch Alex Erickson play and judge his performance.  It's not that hard to do. 

Guy makes a fair catch and there's tons of room you might say "What the hell was that, that was stupid"  Guy does that multiple times over multiple years and you might make a mental note that this is somewhat of a trend, and a knock on his ability as a returner.

I don't know how you can judge a player if you have no standard to judge him by.

It is like saying that you watch a QB throw some interceptions so you decide he is a bad QB.  Yet EVERY quarterback in the league throws interceptions.  So how do you come up with any conclusion about how good a player is without having some standard to judge him against?

You are like the guy who posted 5 clips of Bobby Hart allowing a sack and declaring that he sucks, yet Hart has allowed fewer sacks than most starting OTs in the league.

Your "eye test" is completely meaningless if you can't compare one player to the others in the league.

[Sled21]

(12-31-2020, 01:57 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Don't know, don't care.

I'm not stats and numbers obsessed like you.  I don't need rankings for every single thing to form an opinion. 

I simply watch Alex Erickson play and judge his performance.  It's not that hard to do. 

Guy makes a fair catch and there's tons of room you might say "What the hell was that, that was stupid"  Guy does that multiple times over multiple years and you might make a mental note that this is somewhat of a trend, and a knock on his ability as a returner.

It never occurred to me to run on to the internet and try to find some website that somehow will magically let me sort "fair catches made in space".

I never returned punts, so this is a straight up question, but I thought the punter kind of watched the ball and he got his signal to fair catch or not from a teammate watching the gunners coming for him?

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-31-2020, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how you can judge a player if you have no standard to judge him by.

Your "eye test" is completely meaningless if you can't compare one player to the others in the league.

Why would you assume I have no standards?  Just because I don't assign a numeric value to every single thing doesn't mean I'm not capable of setting standards.  And how can't I compare him to other players in the league?  Who says I'm not?

I've been watching football for 30+ years.  I've watched hundreds and hundreds of NFL games.  I've watched hundreds and hundreds of college games.  I watch Thursday Night Football, I watch Sunday Night Football, I watch Monday Night Football, I usually watch the day game that's on before or after the Bengals. 

If there's football on then I'm usually watching.  It's been that way for decades.  As has my reading of the Sports page every single day of my life since the age of like 12, or me watching Sportscenter.  Throw in "A Football Life", "NFL Films", "30 for 30", etc.

I'm not pointing any of these out to act like I'm so expert.  None of this is all that unique.  Like a lot of NFL fans football has been a big part of my life for a long, long time.

So to insunate that I can't sit down and watch game and already have standards and reference points is incredibly insulting.  I don't need to use a computer to form every single opinion I have on a player, or a team, or a game that I'm watching. 

[impactplaya]

Erickson is very pedestrian when.it comes to returning kicks.
If you need 5 yds on a return he will get you 8 yds
If you need a 50 yd return to flip the field he will get you 8 yds

He really lacks any kind wiggle. He has no explosion or burst at all.
Yet he somehow manages to keep a punt return job
I just know when you keep around the guys like Erickson
The more you stay in last place
Each year he gets handed the punt return job...baffling.

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 02:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Why would you assume I have no standards?  Just because I don't assign a numeric value to every single thing doesn't mean I'm not capable of setting standards.  And how can't I compare him to other players in the league?  Who says I'm not?

Then tell me where he ranks compared to other return men in the league in calling for a fair catch when there is room in front of him.

I have also watched tons of football games and my standard for a bad pass is an interception.  Burrow threw 5 interceptions this year.  Does that mean he is a "bum"?  How would I be able to decide if there was not some standard to compare him to?

If you can't tell me how Erickson compares to other players then your opinion is meaningless.

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 02:32 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Yet he somehow manages to keep a  punt return job

Because he manages to post a punt return average that is better than most other punt return men in the league.

[impactplaya]

(12-31-2020, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because he manages to post a punt return average that is better than most other punt return men in the league.

So how did he end up losing the kickoff return job to Wilson?

[fredtoast]

(12-31-2020, 03:36 PM)impactplaya Wrote: So how did he end up losing the kickoff return job to Wilson?

Wilson was #1 in the league in kick return average last year and is #2 over the last two years combined.

[KillerGoose]

(12-31-2020, 02:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then tell me where he ranks compared to other return men in the league in calling for a fair catch when there is room in front of him.

No stats available on this, but there are stats for the number of fair catches called, at least. Erickson is tied for 3rd in the league in fair catches at 20. 

[BengalChris]

(12-30-2020, 02:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You could be on to something here.

Since 2000 only 9 players have at least 10 punt returns for the Bengals.  Erickson's average (7.9) is only 6th among those 9.

Adam Jones finished in the top 10 in punt return average 2 times while with the Bengals ('12 and '14).  He would have been great returning punts for any team.  But Quan Cosby finished 4th in the league as a Bengal in '09 and I don't consider him an elite return talent.

One thing about Adam Jones was that he never fair caught the ball. That changes the dynamics of the return stats considerably.

 

[Tony]

(12-30-2020, 01:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Brandon Wilson is 5th in the league in kick off return average (27.0 avg)...Last year Wilson lead the entire league with a 31.3 average.


Alex Erickson is 6th in the league in punt return average (9.8 avg)....This is Erickson's second season in the top ten in punt return average (8th in '18).  He has also twice finished in the top FIVE in kick off return average (2nd in '15, 5th in '18)

Erickson sucks. Dude coughs it up more than any returner in the NFL... THANK God he will be gone next year... Dude cost us multiple games over his fumbling BS..

[Tony]

(12-30-2020, 04:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The blonde is hot. Hit.

I bet the fat one can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch..

[Tony]

(12-31-2020, 01:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, these stats used are using a qualifier (min amount of returns).  Not sure which site he pulled them from, but for Punt Returns it's usually 20.

Why is this important?  Well, you might think that he (Erickson) is 6th out of 32, which is pretty impressive.  But that's not the case.  The players who actually qualify by having at least X amount of returns usually ranges between 8-20 (Low and high end are extremes)

This year, using the qualifier on PFR, there are only 14 players who meet this mark.  So he ranks 6th out of 14 in yards per return.  That's pretty average.

See here. (Sort by YPR to see rankings)  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/returns.htm

So just remember that.  6th of 14, not 6th out of 32.  If you remove the qualifier, and sort by all punt returners he actually ranks 22nd.

Throw in his fumbles, where he's at or near the top, and he's a below average returner.  These stats also don't include fair catches he makes where there's room in front of him, and he elects to signal.

Alex Erickson isn't a good punt returner.  Don't let Fred's lack of clarification fool you into how these numbers are calculated and sorted.

Does Fred just make these stupid posts to try and be funny or something? I don't get it.. Everyone knows Erickson is th Dalton of punt returning. HE is as average as it gets...

[Tony]

(12-31-2020, 01:57 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Don't know, don't care.

I'm not stats and numbers obsessed like you.  I don't need rankings for every single thing to form an opinion. 

I simply watch Alex Erickson play and judge his performance.  It's not that hard to do. 

Guy makes a fair catch and there's tons of room you might say "What the hell was that, that was stupid"  Guy does that multiple times over multiple years and you might make a mental note that this is somewhat of a trend, and a knock on his ability as a returner.

It never occurred to me to run on to the internet and try to find some website that somehow will magically let me sort "fair catches made in space".

I never understood having Erickson back there.. We have Gio and Jon Ross who were both excellent in college at returning kicks. .. It seems as if there is way better options on our own team, but Fred wants you to think he's one of the Best returners in football, lol.. It's ridiculous.  It's really damaging to his opinions on things too. He just wants to be different from everyone else...

[Tony]

(12-31-2020, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how you can judge a player if you have no standard to judge him by.

It is like saying that you watch a QB throw some interceptions so you decide he is a bad QB.  Yet EVERY quarterback in the league throws interceptions.  So how do you come up with any conclusion about how good a player is without having some standard to judge him against?

You are like the guy who posted 5 clips of Bobby Hart allowing a sack and declaring that he sucks, yet Hart has allowed fewer sacks than most starting OTs in the league.

Your "eye test" is completely meaningless if you can't compare one player to the others in the league.

Just stop.. Bobby Hart has missed a ton of games this year. He is horrible. You can't be serious...

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(01-01-2021, 01:28 PM)Tony Wrote: I never understood having Erickson back there.. We have Gio and Jon Ross who were both excellent in college at returning kicks. .. It seems as if there is way better options on our own team, but Fred wants you to think he's one of the Best returners in football, lol.. It's ridiculous.  It's really damaging to his opinions on things too. He just wants to be different from everyone else...

Would you be confident that Ross would catch it?