How much if it is personnel and how much is coaching?

[Wes Mantooth]

(01-04-2021, 07:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is not a single person here that could compete against other NFL teams ran by NFL professionals.

I could.  Wanna know how?

I'd be like the majority of owners and use all of my money to bring in other people to run my team.  I'd hire advisors, search commitees, and the sort to help start to build out my front office.  From there I'd step back and let the people who are actually qualified make the decisions.  And if they weren't successful, I'd use my tremendous resources to find people who were.

Trust me when I say that I do not think I'm some sort of NFL genius, but I could wipe the floor with the likes of Arthur Blank, Sheila Ford, and Dean Spanos in football knowledge.

You don't need to be on the level of a GM to successfully own an NFL team.  First you have to be rich.  Second, you lean on your what money can bring you; competent people around you.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I somehow switched lives with Mike Brown tommorrow, that this franchise would be immediately better off.  You can scoff at that all you like, but I believe it.  And that goes for any number of other rational people that would approach the situation the same way that I would.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 06:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He was recovering from injury the first half of last year.  His lack of production had nothing to do with lack of effort.

This year he was pissed at the coaches for benching him just because they wanted to get rid of him.  Dunlap did not mid losing snaps to guys like Hubbard and Lawson.  It was losing snaps to scrubs like Bledsoe and Kareem that bothered him.


And as for the "far superior" Lawson, Los had more TFL (6 to 4) and almost as many sacks (4.5 to 5.5) in just EIGHT GAMES with Seattle as Lawson did in SIXTEEN GAMES with the Bengals.

That scrub Kareem had a PFF rating within ONE POINT of Carlos, and funny that you would leave "pressures" off the comparison.  I'm sure you have it.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-04-2021, 07:04 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Well it was close, but, and I hate to use the excuse, weren't for the injuries, especially our new injured free agents, we had pretty decent players except for the oline, coming into this season. So if I were to leave the front office out of it and base the percentages strictly off Players and coaching staff it would shake out 40% Players, 60% Coaching Staff. If Burrow, Reader, Waynes, Atkins,Phillips,Mixon etc. would have played the whole season and if we finished with the same record as we did then I could see giving the players more of the blame, about 50/50. Coaches have to learn to adapt the game plan to the players they have at their disposal, which they did in a few games( 2nd Steelers game and Texans game) but failed in far too many others. The 2nd half adjustments or lack there of by the coaches, especially Coach Anarumo, is a big reason I ranked the fault a littler higher with the coaches.

Yep, they were historically poor in the third quarter, no doubt.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-04-2021, 05:30 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I didn't want to do a poll and have set answers.  It gets a little tricky with coaching, because do you include Tobin in that group and blame him for the personnel?

To simplify, I am going to leave the front office out of the equation.  You could make another thread about that if you wish, but there are plenty of those and all they do is point at the ineptitude.  I get it, as it is like Groundhog Day around here again after a nice run with Dalton and Green early on and Palmer and Chad before that.  

How much of THIS team's failures do you put on the players and how much do you put on the coaches?

I am split almost 50/50.  I think the roster has huge holes and injuries sure didn't help with a lack of quality depth.  Those holes are much more evident now than coming in to the 2020 season when we had high hopes for guys like Green, Atkins, and Dunlap.  Now all three need replaced.  I even had high hopes for Ross with Burrow.  Go ahead, let me have it for that one.  

I see big needs on both the inside and outside of the offensive line.  The defensive line needs help both inside and outside.  The WR group is talented but limited.  They need a couple burners that can generate quick separation and take the proverbial top off the defense. There are very few position groups I would refer to as "strengths".  That is not to say a good offseason can't make a huge difference, but then we have the coaches.

The same coaches that seemed to take 6 weeks to discover a screen pass that works on blitzing defenses.  The same coaches that seemingly reversed the progress of every offensive linemen but one (Hart).  The same coaching staff that had play after play of Burrow taking shots from free rushers.  

As much as I am disappointed with the coaching staff, I still put half of the blame on the roster.  The offensive line and defensive line play was really poor.  That led to so many problems across the board.  I never really saw improvement except for some personnel changes that came way too late (Margus Hunt, Spain).  Could a great coaching staff win with the team that was on the field this year?  I really don't think so.  

It's 50% players and 50% coaches in my book.  They are going to make a lot of changes (I would imagine) to the roster, but not so much in the coaching ranks.  Will that get the Bengals in to the playoffs?  With Burrow, I think almost anything is possible.  However, the biggest achilles heel to me moving forward will not be the roster, but the coaches.

I'm with you, it's a combination of both. Depth is a big problem on this team, and the starters in the trenches leave a lot to be desired.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2021, 11:29 AM)Wyche Wrote: I'm with you, it's a combination of both. Depth is a big problem on this team, and the starters in the trenches leave a lot to be desired.

Yes, sir!  

I would address that with Thuney as a FA to play LG.  The left side of the Bengals offensive line becomes elite.  I draft Faalele and he is groomed to start behind Hart at RT, unless they feel he is ready to start week 1.  I would rather keep Hart to start the season but that point can be debated.  I also hope they sign Spain to compete with a draft pick and XSF for the other G spot...probably wise to draft one that can play C since Hopkins injury.

The defensive side will have Wren, Tupou, and Reader back from injury/opt out.  They should extend Hunt, and draft a guy like Barmore or Twyman in Rd 2 for depth and competition in the middle.  

With both lines improved, the rest of the team will look much better, IMHO.

[impactplaya]

Its coaching.
Want a example. Look no farther than the Cleveland Browns
They overhauled their coaching staff from 2019.
The results. Playoffs.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:16 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Its coaching.
Want a example. Look no farther than the Cleveland Browns
They overhauled their coaching staff from 2019.
The results. Playoffs.

Why is this even a thing people are using.  Cleveland has turned and burned 2394872394587 coaches and qb's.... and now that they finally get it once we want to point to the Cleveland Browns as a model of success?  NO.  

[TecmoBengals]

It's weird that people are defending Zac. He inherited a bad team and made it worse, that's pretty hard to manage. Zac is an historically bad NFL coach. He ranks among the worst coaches in the history of the NFL who have coached over 30 games. 6-25-1. It's a joke he's returning.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-04-2021, 07:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I could.  Wanna know how?

I'd be like the majority of owners and use all of my money to bring in other people to run my team.  I'd hire advisors, search commitees, and the sort to help start to build out my front office.  From there I'd step back and let the people who are actually qualified make the decisions.  And if they weren't successful, I'd use my tremendous resources to find people who were.

Trust me when I say that I do not think I'm some sort of NFL genius, but I could wipe the floor with the likes of Arthur Blank, Sheila Ford, and Dean Spanos in football knowledge.

You don't need to be on the level of a GM to successfully own an NFL team.  First you have to be rich.  Second, you lean on your what money can bring you; competent people around you.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I somehow switched lives with Mike Brown tommorrow, that this franchise would be immediately better off.  You can scoff at that all you like, but I believe it.  And that goes for any number of other rational people that would approach the situation the same way that I would.

I completely agree with you on the that approach.  That's definitely what I'd do, and based on reading your stuff over the years I know you're smarter at football than me.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:21 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: It's weird that people are defending Zac. He inherited a bad team and made it worse, that's pretty hard to manage. Zac is an historically bad NFL coach. He ranks among the worst coaches in the history of the NFL who have coached over 30 games. 6-25-1. It's a joke he's returning.

I've not heard this yet.  Link showing he's returning?

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 12:17 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Why is this even a thing people are using.  Cleveland has turned and burned 2394872394587 coaches and qb's.... and now that they finally get it once we want to point to the Cleveland Browns as a model of success?  NO.  

I think you might be missing the point.  It's not that the Browns are the model of how to run a franchise.  In this particular case, it's showing that with the same roster but coaching changes they were able to turn it around.  So coaching makes a difference.  People want to put Zac's failures on the injuries and a supposedly bad roster, but he and his coaching staff don't design their play to the strengths of the guys they do have.  It is possible to do well with less than a roster full of All Pros.  

[TecmoBengals]

(01-05-2021, 12:22 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: I've not heard this yet.  Link showing he's returning?

Huh? Failed attempt at humor or sarcasm?

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:24 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I think you might be missing the point.  It's not that the Browns are the model of how to run a franchise.  In this particular case, it's showing that with the same roster but coaching changes they were able to turn it around.  So coaching makes a difference.  People want to put Zac's failures on the injuries and a supposedly bad roster, but he and his coaching staff don't design their play to the strengths of the guys they do have.  It is possible to do well with less than a roster full of All Pros.  

In no way am I missing the point.  I've read multiple of those responses about Cleveland hiring a coach this year and going to the playoffs.  

How do you think Cleveland's roster compares to Cincy?  DO NOT count people that didn't step on the field.

[bengaloo]

I think its close to 50/50, maybe 60/40 with the 60 on coaching.

Turner comes to mind first. As long as he has been coaching, he should have known that Fred Johnson was a pretty solid OT but terrible OG. There is no excuse for that at all. Also, pretty much anyone was better than MJ at OG but Turner stuck with him game after game until it finally got Burrow hurt, and then he made the change. Not cool. He should've been fired that game imo. In general his OL's have been a massive failure and his coaching doesnt seem to work.

Lou I'm really mixed on. He did put together some good game plans and his D shined at times, but at the same time his D lost a handful of games for us by ghosting in the 2nd half and especially late in the game. We can blame it on him calling prevent defense when we had a lead, but he did actually try it differently a time or two and the results were the same, especially when Sims had to play. The DL was scrapped with injuries and optouts and that was a big problem. We had no real consistent pass rusher at all, and mostly young LB's who had no offseason. But Bell, Alexander and Bates all played really well especially Bates. We had zero depth at CB also. Waynes never played and anytime we were forced to put Sims out there he got burnt repeatedly. Its hard to judge a defense that was basically signing guys off the streets and suiting them up to play. Lou was part of the problem for sure, but his biggest problem may have been missing players, lack of depth, no pass rusher to really execute his plan. I know of the communication issues but Bates said it got better. Lou will get one more season to prove he can do it. Thats all

I'm not putting it on the Front office this year. They went pretty big in FA and the guys they signed played well when they played. Alexander, Bell and Reader all look like good players for us. XSF was solid when he played also. You cant rebuild a whole team in one offseason.

ZT called some good games/plays and had some head scratchers. I think its hard for any OC to execute a real game plan when your OL sucks as bad as ours did though. They couldnt protect Burrow or open holes for Mixon. It got better when XSF and Spain were playing G, but by then Burrow was gone. I think with OL upgrades this offense could be on the verge of being good. They showed it at times. Give Burrow time to pass and Mixon/Gio/Perine holes to run through and the offense could be really good. But thats just his play calling. He still has to prove he can be a good HC. He has a lot to prove and one season to do it.

As far as Dunlap goes, it was obvious he wanted to play in the same kind of defense he always played in. Lou is going more 3-4 which is something a lot of fans have been wanting for years. Carlos didnt want to be an OLB in a 3-4 he wanted to be a DE in a 4-3. Change doesnt sit well with older players very often and he's a perfect example of that. As much as he was mad that he sat on the bench some, we did improve a bit when he left. Good mutual separation there. A win for both sides.

Also, I think something overlooked is the Covid and lack of offseason. That didnt help a team with so many new faces this year.

[impactplaya]

(01-05-2021, 12:17 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Why is this even a thing people are using.  Cleveland has turned and burned 2394872394587 coaches and qb's.... and now that they finally get it once we want to point to the Cleveland Browns as a model of success?  NO.  

I will use the Steelers then if it makes.you happy.
They lost over the last 4 years 
LEVEON BELL
RYAN SHAZIER
ANTONIO BROWN

all elite players.still a playoff contender
This season lost Devin Bush, Bud Dupree on defense
Still led the NFL in team sacks. 

Its coaching.
There isnt one coach on the Bengals staff thats better 
Than any coach on the Steelers staff. 

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:26 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Huh? Failed attempt at humor or sarcasm?

Complete sarcasm.  And it's really not even aimed specifically at you, so I should first apologize.  I'm just frustrated with reading that same BS.  

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 12:26 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: In no way am I missing the point.  I've read multiple of those responses about Cleveland hiring a coach this year and going to the playoffs.  

How do you think Cleveland's roster compares to Cincy?  DO NOT count people that didn't step on the field.

It doesn't matter?  If you have a roster and perform poorly, and a coaching change is made and the team performs better, you can point to and say that coaching does matter and can elevate the play of the team on the field.  I don't think I need to do 1:1 comparisons of the roster for that point to stand. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

Is there an award for biggest homer or something? There’s some serious OT being worked here lately..

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:28 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: It doesn't matter?  If you have a roster and perform poorly, and a coaching change is made and the team performs better, you can point to and say that coaching does matter and can elevate the play of the team on the field.  I don't think I need to do 1:1 comparisons of the roster for that point to stand. 

Yes, as long as your point is that ZT sucks, facts/stats nothing matters.  The bottom line is Cleveland did some amazing and wonderous thing for the first time in their history and fired a coach after one year and got a different one and made it to the playoffs.  It really should make world news.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 11:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yes, sir!  

I would address that with Thuney as a FA to play LG.  The left side of the Bengals offensive line becomes elite.  I draft Faalele and he is groomed to start behind Hart at RT, unless they feel he is ready to start week 1.  I would rather keep Hart to start the season but that point can be debated.  I also hope they sign Spain to compete with a draft pick and XSF for the other G spot...probably wise to draft one that can play C since Hopkins injury.

The defensive side will have Wren, Tupou, and Reader back from injury/opt out.  They should extend Hunt, and draft a guy like Barmore or Twyman in Rd 2 for depth and competition in the middle.  

With both lines improved, the rest of the team will look much better, IMHO.

Indeed.

I gave the staff a pass for last season. The team was built to play Marv Ball, and I really think they were just evaluating the roster to see who would fit their vision, and who wouldn't. This past season I expected 7 or so wins. We didn't get there. Obviously there were several key injuries, including Joe, but I still feel like they should've done better. 

It's 9 wins or bust for me moving forward. Get above 500 or can the staff.