How much if it is personnel and how much is coaching?

[TecmoBengals]

(01-05-2021, 12:28 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Complete sarcasm.  And it's really not even aimed specifically at you, so I should first apologize.  I'm just frustrated with reading that same BS.  

No apologies needed, it's just forum banter. Where I am confused though, is how can you call it BS? Zac has an awful W/L record that most NFL franchises do not tolerate and most NFL franchises have experienced more winning than the Bengals organization (I think I recall reading that around 20 of the teams have won at least one Super Bowl). Sure, running an NFL organization is way more complex than saying, "6-25-1 means he should be fired", but it should also not be ignored.

Anyhow, I'm not surprised Zac is back. I've been watching this franchise for over 30 years, but I still have enough interest in the team to be disappointed when the Brown family makes the wrong move. Zac returning for season 3 is reminiscent of the '90s. I'll gladly admit I was wrong in my opinion and support Zac if he brings winning and the playoffs to Cincinnati.

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 12:36 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Yes, as long as your point is that ZT sucks, facts/stats nothing matters.  The bottom line is Cleveland did some amazing and wonderous thing for the first time in their history and fired a coach after one year and got a different one and made it to the playoffs.  It really should make world news.

Take Zac out of it for a minute.  The one and only point that I'm making is that coaching changes can have a big positive impact.  As we saw with the Browns, it has to be the RIGHT coaching change, but it can make a really big difference.  

When people look at a team and say "this isn't working", it could be that somehow a team in a small league ended up with every bad player and can't ever improve.  Or it could be that the coaches aren't doing a great job.  And I don't say that thinking great HCs come along every day.  They don't, because they're special.  But they do exist, and they do make a big difference. 

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2021, 07:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I could.  Wanna know how?

I'd be like the majority of owners and use all of my money to bring in other people to run my team.  I'd hire advisors, search commitees, and the sort to help start to build out my front office.  From there I'd step back and let the people who are actually qualified make the decisions.  And if they weren't successful, I'd use my tremendous resources to find people who were.

Trust me when I say that I do not think I'm some sort of NFL genius, but I could wipe the floor with the likes of Arthur Blank, Sheila Ford, and Dean Spanos in football knowledge.

You don't need to be on the level of a GM to successfully own an NFL team.  First you have to be rich.  Second, you lean on your what money can bring you; competent people around you.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I somehow switched lives with Mike Brown tommorrow, that this franchise would be immediately better off.  You can scoff at that all you like, but I believe it.  And that goes for any number of other rational people that would approach the situation the same way that I would.

Brilliant logic.

I guess if you were rich you would also cure cancer by hiring someone to do it and if they failed hiring someone else.

Simple answes for simple minds.  Amazing that all other NFL owners don't realize how simple it is.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-04-2021, 07:04 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Well it was close, but, and I hate to use the excuse, weren't for the injuries, especially our new injured free agents, we had pretty decent players except for the oline, coming into this season. So if I were to leave the front office out of it and base the percentages strictly off Players and coaching staff it would shake out 40% Players, 60% Coaching Staff. If Burrow, Reader, Waynes, Atkins,Phillips,Mixon etc. would have played the whole season and if we finished with the same record as we did then I could see giving the players more of the blame, about 50/50. Coaches have to learn to adapt the game plan to the players they have at their disposal, which they did in a few games( 2nd Steelers game and Texans game) but failed in far too many others. The 2nd half adjustments or lack there of by the coaches, especially Coach Anarumo, is a big reason I ranked the fault a littler higher with the coaches.

I think that's a very fair assessment myself.

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: I think that's a very fair assessment myself.

It sounds good in theory.  But please tell me how you can adapt turning Margus Hunt into Geno Atkins.  Or Finley/Allen into Burrow.  Or Covington into Reader.  Or Sims into WJAX.  Or MJ into XuFilo, or Adenji/Johnson into Williams.  There's more, but you get it.

I mean, really.  I think coaches do absolutely have to adapt to what they're given, and whether it's fair or not I do understand that the blame falls on them because that's just how it is.  I really do.  But at some point, it becomes too much.  

[wildcatnku24]

(01-05-2021, 12:43 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: Take Zac out of it for a minute.  The one and only point that I'm making is that coaching changes can have a big positive impact.  As we saw with the Browns, it has to be the RIGHT coaching change, but it can make a really big difference.  

When people look at a team and say "this isn't working", it could be that somehow a team in a small league ended up with every bad player and can't ever improve.  Or it could be that the coaches aren't doing a great job.  And I don't say that thinking great HCs come along every day.  They don't, because they're special.  But they do exist, and they do make a big difference. 

Fair enough.  I just personally don't want to change coaches until I've seen enough (since it's based off my opinion) and I just haven't seen enough PERSONALLY to say Zac can't be that guy.  Now, at the same time I can definitely say this is his last chance (last year) and be totally good and ready to move on if need be.  Heck, we may even be able to attract a really popular (proven) coach with having Burrow and potentially a decent OL along with a deadly trio of WR's (Chase, Higgins, Boyd). 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 12:55 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: It sounds good in theory.  But please tell me how you can adapt turning Margus Hunt into Geno Atkins.  Or Finley/Allen into Burrow.  Or Covington into Reader.  Or Sims into WJAX.  Or MJ into XuFilo, or Adenji/Johnson into Williams.  There's more, but you get it.

I mean, really.  I think coaches do absolutely have to adapt to what they're given, and whether it's fair or not I do understand that the blame falls on them because that's just how it is.  I really do.  But at some point, it becomes too much.  

He mentioned the injuries, and I take it as a very level headed response vs some I've seen.

Like I mentioned before, there is a personnel deficiency on the lines, and our depth is not very good. That said, I think a more seasoned staff does better with what we have. Unlike others, I was not concerned about the losing in year one. This past season has put doubt in my mind. They better turn the corner in a big way next season, or it's time to cut bait. I wouldn't have minded if they did that this year, but they're not. I'm not losing my mind over it, but I expect to see some results in 2021.

[Waite Hoyt]

As limited as this team was due to personnel and injuries we still managed to win 4 games. I can recall at least 3 others were we should have won. Chargers, Browns and Philly should have been wins. This team with injuries and playing a rookie QB with know preseason to help could of won 7 games.

Here is a dose of reality. As we sit right now from a talent standpoint in our division we are the least talented team. We play 6 games against that competition.

Changing coaching staffs is not the answer. Get better players and stay healthy.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2021, 12:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: Indeed.

I gave the staff a pass for last season. The team was built to play Marv Ball, and I really think they were just evaluating the roster to see who would fit their vision, and who wouldn't. This past season I expected 7 or so wins. We didn't get there. Obviously there were several key injuries, including Joe, but I still feel like they should've done better. 

It's 9 wins or bust for me moving forward. Get above 500 or can the staff.

I will take it a step further:  given that many teams may be in cap purgatory moving forward and the fact that the Bengals are still in the rookie wage scale QB years, they should be able to free up some money and add a couple significant FAs while still retaining their key pieces.  

I think Burrow will be ready week 1.  I feel like with a couple more key pieces on offense (the line as we discussed and a WR) that they will be able to trade scores with anyone.  The defense will be a big question mark until we know about WJIII and Lawson, but there is no way they lose both.  I could see WJIII departing and using that first pick on a CB (not what I necessarily want, but I could see it happening).  

They should be able to contend for a playoff spot.  They are in the toughest division in the NFL, no doubt.  It won't be easy, but I see Jackson as limited (although amazing as a runner) and Piggy as fat and done.  It could be Ohio at the top of the AFC North next year.  

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 01:07 PM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: As limited as this team was due to personnel and injuries we still managed to win 4 games. I can recall at least 3 others were we should have won. Chargers, Browns and Philly should have been wins. This team with injuries and playing a rookie QB with know preseason to help could of won 7 games.

Here is a dose of reality. As we sit right now from a talent standpoint in our division we are the least talented team. We play 6 games against that competition.

Changing coaching staffs is not the answer. Get better players and stay healthy.

I don't understand how the statement about talent can be made as an apples to apples comparison.  Is the talent on the other teams magnitudes better or are those talents being utilized better by other teams?  Just because the team sucked in comparison to the other teams doesn't mean they don't have talent on the teams to compete.  There are some players that are just obviously head and shoulders better than another player, but there are many players on every team that can lean on either side depending on how they're utilized. 

But I agree that there are certainly gaps in personnel.  That's a major part of Tobin's role, and I think he's failed at it.  He's just as much, and probably more, to blame for the issues this team has right now than Taylor or the players.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 01:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I will take it a step further:  given that many teams may be in cap purgatory moving forward and the fact that the Bengals are still in the rookie wage scale QB years, they should be able to free up some money and add a couple significant FAs while still retaining their key pieces.  

I think Burrow will be ready week 1.  I feel like with a couple more key pieces on offense (the line as we discussed and a WR) that they will be able to trade scores with anyone.  The defense will be a big question mark until we know about WJIII and Lawson, but there is no way they lose both.  I could see WJIII departing and using that first pick on a CB (not what I necessarily want, but I could see it happening).  

They should be able to contend for a playoff spot.  They are in the toughest division in the NFL, no doubt.  It won't be easy, but I see Jackson as limited (although amazing as a runner) and Piggy as fat and done.  It could be Ohio at the top of the AFC North next year.  

Some good moves in FA could make this team competitive, and....like you...I believe that if the line is made at least a bit above average and a burner added, this offense should be able to hang with anyone. 

Defense will be the key to going from an also ran to a serious contender.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2021, 01:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: Some good moves in FA could make this team competitive, and....like you...I believe that if the line is made at least a bit above average and a burner added, this offense should be able to hang with anyone. 

Defense will be the key to going from an also ran to a serious contender.

Yep.  That is why I am hoping for a stud DT in Rd 2 like Twyman or Barmore.  That addition, plus Reader, Wren, Tupou, and perhaps Hunt back would go a long way to shoring up the rest of the defense.  

I hate to say it, but I hope they aren't banking on Geno coming back after surgery.  I think it is just time to get what you can for him or release him.  Move on.  It is really unlikely he has a sudden return to form after declining as he has.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 01:28 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I don't understand how the statement about talent can be made as an apples to apples comparison.  Is the talent on the other teams magnitudes better or are those talents being utilized better by other teams?  Just because the team sucked in comparison to the other teams doesn't mean they don't have talent on the teams to compete.  There are some players that are just obviously head and shoulders better than another player, but there are many players on every team that can lean on either side depending on how they're utilized. 

But I agree that there are certainly gaps in personnel.  That's a major part of Tobin's role, and I think he's failed at it.  He's just as much, and probably more, to blame for the issues this team has right now than Taylor or the players.  

Absolutely agree on Tobin. He really bombed from 2015 through 2018 when you look at it. That 2015 draft really set this team back, and the cracks started to show at the end of Marvin's tenure.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 01:38 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep.  That is why I am hoping for a stud DT in Rd 2 like Twyman or Barmore.  That addition, plus Reader, Wren, Tupou, and perhaps Hunt back would go a long way to shoring up the rest of the defense.  

I hate to say it, but I hope they aren't banking on Geno coming back after surgery.  I think it is just time to get what you can for him or release him.  Move on.  It is really unlikely he has a sudden return to form after declining as he has.  

Agreed again....if they do all they *could* do to shore up the roster and these guys still suck? C-ya.

I'm torn on Atkins. He really did try to gut it out this season. No whining, no just outright quitting, he tried to soldier through a shoulder injury. That has to be considered. He was ok last season, but not much help around him. I really hoped he'd retire here, but you may be right about what to do with him.

[Waite Hoyt]

(01-05-2021, 01:28 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I don't understand how the statement about talent can be made as an apples to apples comparison.  Is the talent on the other teams magnitudes better or are those talents being utilized better by other teams?  Just because the team sucked in comparison to the other teams doesn't mean they don't have talent on the teams to compete.  There are some players that are just obviously head and shoulders better than another player, but there are many players on every team that can lean on either side depending on how they're utilized. 

But I agree that there are certainly gaps in personnel.  That's a major part of Tobin's role, and I think he's failed at it.  He's just as much, and probably more, to blame for the issues this team has right now than Taylor or the players.  

Not saying coaching doesn’t matter but talent or lack there of is a huge factor in wins and loses.

[MileHighGrowler]

(01-05-2021, 02:06 PM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Not saying coaching doesn’t matter but talent or lack there of is a huge factor in wins and loses.

I certainly agree that talent is important.  But every team has to expect injuries each year.  Every team has to be able to operate with those middle-of-the-road guys or backups.  And a great coach can find a way to elevate those guys so the pain of injuries or having a lower-grade player isn't as great.  And that's why I put the blame of this past season on Zac more than the players.  He didn't find ways to be creative and elevate anyone.  He continued to roll with the offense he wanted and expected guys to just plug right into it.  

[bengals67]

roster   D based upon performance - C or higher based upon potential when some of them first came to Bengals.

Coaching   D-

front office  F +


Failures of cheap and stubborn front office directly cause the low grades on personnel and coaching.

I think I have said this before but I have a close friend and client who played in the NFL as a starting guard for 9 years. He says the talent on almost all teams is nearly equivalent. He says the difference is the quality of the organization starting first and foremost with front office.

Poor practice facilities ( worse than most D 1 colleges not to mention the top 30 programs), lowest budget committed to scouting, poor draft picks, below average coaches all point to the CEO of the organization being clueless or having other agendas besides building a championship team.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2021, 01:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: Agreed again....if they do all they *could* do to shore up the roster and these guys still suck? C-ya.

I'm torn on Atkins. He really did try to gut it out this season. No whining, no just outright quitting, he tried to soldier through a shoulder injury. That has to be considered. He was ok last season, but not much help around him. I really hoped he'd retire here, but you may be right about what to do with him.

It is a really tough decision.  HOF player, great guy, but past his prime and expensive. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-05-2021, 02:17 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is a really tough decision.  HOF player, great guy, but past his prime and expensive. 

The expensive part is the biggest knock, no question.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(01-05-2021, 01:28 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I don't understand how the statement about talent can be made as an apples to apples comparison.  Is the talent on the other teams magnitudes better or are those talents being utilized better by other teams?  Just because the team sucked in comparison to the other teams doesn't mean they don't have talent on the teams to compete.  There are some players that are just obviously head and shoulders better than another player, but there are many players on every team that can lean on either side depending on how they're utilized. 

But I agree that there are certainly gaps in personnel.  That's a major part of Tobin's role, and I think he's failed at it.  He's just as much, and probably more, to blame for the issues this team has right now than Taylor or the players.  

I think the Bengals' biggest weakness is the back of the roster. The starters can sort of hold their own but the depth gets brutally exposed. This where you're relying on Tobin and he has let them down. There are simply too many replacement level players.

I don't know if this is down to an unwillingness to spend on quality depth (I can imagine Mike Brown saying why do I need to pay for a back-up) but it hurts the Bengals time after time. Of course there is going to be a drop from starter to back-up but it shouldn't be as step as it has been for the Bengals.

Look at the Bengals' failure to use the waiver wire effectively. Was there really no-one better than Calhoun waived when Cincy had priority? That's on Tobin. The should be cycling through the back of the roster looking for someone who can stick. Instead they've been wasting spots on two kickers, or keeping a QB for a year before just cutting him.

(01-05-2021, 01:43 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Absolutely agree on Tobin. He really bombed from 2015 through 2018 when you look at it. That 2015 draft really set this team back, and the cracks started to show at the end of Marvin's tenure.

Bombing the draft at the same time as failing to re-sign players - Zeitler, Marvin Jones, Whitworth, Sanu, Reggie Nelson etc - absolutely devastating for a draft and develop side that wouldn't spend in free agency.