.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-08-2021, 07:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A couple things...

1) I understand what you are getting at but you should not draft for pure need at 5 overall. If you re-sign Lawson and upgrade the OL in FA as has been mentioned by Paul Dehner Jr just within the past week, you'd have your starters set. As such, you'd only be drafting a rotational player or a player to take over in a year or two. Pitts would (or should) be an immediate TE1 and see a lot of snaps in any offense.
2) A player with the talent of Pitts is someone you cater the offense toward. If Taylor is not willing to incorporate his offense to use a TE more as a pass catcher, that's his loss. The expectation would be you would (or should) use Pitts essentially as a third WR. You can keep Sample on the field too for blocking.
3) Pitts has blocked before, he just hasn't done it heavily.
4) Travis Kelce had 2nd most receiving yards in entire league...WRs included. Wouldn’t you want a guy like Kelce?

We are going to have to agree to disagree because you aren't changing my mind, and I guess I'm not changing yours.

I accept Pitts is a good player in college but 1 is more important..we are weaker at LB than WR.. so I go LB
2.  I don;t buy he is transitional for us.. size nice..but he has 4.7 that is not going to open the field up..we can find position TEs later
3.  Kelce was later in draft.. i don;t think any of your top end TEs over the last 3 years have been even picked in 1st round and I know not top 5.


On Pitts we don;t agree, but do you agree Parsons should be considered with 5 pick

[BengalsRocker]

(01-08-2021, 05:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Ecstatic with....

1.Sewell
2.Chase

Happy with...

3.Pitts
4.Smith

Good with.. 

5.Surtain

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-08-2021, 08:27 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I accept Pitts is a good player in college but 1 is more important..we are weaker at LB than WR.. so I go LB
2.  I don;t buy he is transitional for us.. size nice..but he has 4.7 that is not going to open the field up..we can find position TEs later
3.  Kelce was later in draft.. i don;t think any of your top end TEs over the last 3 years have been even picked in 1st round and I know not top 5.


On Pitts we don;t agree, but do you agree Parsons should be considered with 5 pick

Ocho literally mentioned TJ Hockenson in his post...

Who had the 3rd most yards and 4th most receptions out of all TE’s this season. He was taken 8th overall in 2019.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-08-2021, 10:16 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ocho literally mentioned TJ Hockenson in his post...

Who had the 3rd most yards and 4th most receptions out of all TE’s this season. He was taken 8th overall in 2019.

still not the top TE over last three years..and still that is only 1 TE picked in top 10..i have also pointed out where the other top TEs have been coming day 2/3.  i can find a lot better LBS over the last few years in top 10 vs TEs and actually WRs... i don;t think your argument have been very strong for TE at 5... but its your opinion...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2021, 12:00 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: still not the top TE over last three years..and only 1 there...how about the rest of those TEs ?  i can find alot better LBS over the last few years in top 10...hmmm

You’re not even trying to have a discussion in good faith at this point. The kid was 3rd in yards for all TE’s this season behind only Kelce and Waller, and is already a Pro Bowler in just his second year. He’s absolutely a “top TE.”

But I think we all clearly understand that you don’t want Pitts at this point...

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-09-2021, 12:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re not even trying to have a discussion in good faith at this point. The kid was 3rd in yards for all TE’s this season behind only Kelce and Waller, and is already a Pro Bowler in just his second year. He’s absolutely a “top TE.”

But I think we all clearly understand that you don’t want Pitts at this point...

He derailed the thread and pissed Yojimbo off enough to want it deleted. 

Ouch

[Essex Johnson]

(01-09-2021, 12:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re not even trying to have a discussion in good faith at this point. The kid was 3rd in yards for all TE’s this season behind only Kelce and Waller, and is already a Pro Bowler in just his second year. He’s absolutely a “top TE.”

But I think we all clearly understand that you don’t want Pitts at this point...

As you don;t respond either in good faith.. i putting out multiple examples of the top TEs outside 1st round etc..you point out  one and act like end of discussion ... you jumped into discussion ..if you don't like my comments in other discussions..don;t respond and   i will do the same ...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2021, 11:59 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: As you don;t respond either in good faith.. i putting out multiple examples of the top TEs outside 1st round etc..you point out  one and act like end of discussion ... you jumped into discussion ..if you don't like my comments in other discussions..don;t respond and   i will do the same ...

AGAIN...

You said this:

“i don;t think any of your top end TEs over the last 3 years have been even picked in 1st round”

You chose to ignore the example that was already given to you, so i reiterated that one of the top TE’s in the league was taken 8th overall. You then moved the goalposts and proclaimed “tHAtS oNLy OnE!”

But sure, we’ll just find the next Travis Kelce or George Kittle in the 3rd or 5th rounds. It happened a couple times before so it’s obviously that easy..

[Luvnit2]

If we are at #5, here is my acceptable list if we can' trade down (which is very hard)

1. Sewell (OT)
2. Smith (WR)
3. Chase (WR)
4. Pitts (TE)
5. Rousseau (DE/Edge)

If we trade back to pick 10 or below:
All 5 above +
Pitts (TE)
Slater(OT)
Paye (DE/Edge

But I may have a change of heart after combine and senior bowl, point being it is very early

[*bfine32*]

If history repeats and we take Reed in the 1st what ever team takes the next TE (Jordan, Freiermuth) will be getting a superstar. The last 2 times we drafted a TE in the first the next TEs off the board were Gronk and Ertz. Below are some other TEs that went outside the first round in those 2 drafts:

Jimmy Graham
Vance McDonald
Travis Kelce
Jordan Reed
Dennis Pitta

[Luvnit2]

(01-09-2021, 01:40 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He derailed the thread and pissed Yojimbo off enough to want it deleted. 

Ouch

Sadly it is pattern with some to derail threads. We have all done it, but some seem to thrive on it yet it goes unpunished.

Good thread and hope it is not deleted, maybe some posts in it should be deleted though!

[Luvnit2]

(01-09-2021, 01:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If history repeats and we take Reed in the 1st what ever team takes the next TE (Jordan, Freiermuth) will be getting a superstar. The last 2 times we drafted a TE in the first the next TEs off the board were Gronk and Ertz. Below are some other TEs that went outside the first round in those 2 drafts:

Jimmy Graham
Vance McDonald
Travis Kelce
Jordan Reed
Dennis Pitta

Ertz may be available. I would love to bring him in to team with Sample and Uz. Then, we would not have to reach for Pitts at #5, but I do like Pitts, just not at #5.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-08-2021, 08:27 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I accept Pitts is a good player in college but 1 is more important..we are weaker at LB than WR.. so I go LB
2.  I don;t buy he is transitional for us.. size nice..but he has 4.7 that is not going to open the field up..we can find position TEs later
3.  Kelce was later in draft.. i don;t think any of your top end TEs over the last 3 years have been even picked in 1st round and I know not top 5.


On Pitts we don;t agree, but do you agree Parsons should be considered with 5 pick

I do not agree Parsons should be considered at 5.
An off-ball LB does not have the same value as an elite TE in today's NFL.
Out of the top 10 LBs in the NFL in 2020, none of them were 1st round picks. All were picked between Rds 2-4.

As for TEs being in top 5, you clearly didn't even bother doing research.
TJ Hockenson had the third-most receiving yards amongst TEs, and he was picked 8th overall in 2019.
Noah Fant, another 1st rounder in 2019, was 6th most.
Evan Engram (1st round 2017) was 8th most.

Kelce should have been drafted higher, but he went to UC, which was not a Power 5 school. Had he went to a Power 5 school and put up his senior year stats, he likely would have been a 2nd or even 1st round pick.

As for 40 time for Pitts, how do you know it's 4.7? He hasn't ran the 40 yet at the Combine or Pro Day. 
I believe you are reading a report that he ran 4.70 IN HIGH SCHOOL (https://www.profootballnetwork.com/three-headed-monster-2021-tight-end-group/). 

Quote:The lanky tight end prospect reportedly ran a 4.70 during the recruiting process and an overall SPARQ rating of 108.24. Pitts had offers from a CVS list of schools throughout the country but chose Florida in the end.

He looks faster than 4.70 in the games I've watched this year. We'll see come Combine time.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-08-2021, 07:15 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: what does a few spots really mean when you compare it to need.. and we have no guarantee how any player is actually going to perform in the NFL to their draft pick so would you rather guess right on a player of need over a best position player you don't have as high as the need

Because professional sports are leagues of talent. The most talented players give you the best results, regardless of position, which lessens the burden on other positions around them. If you have an average player at a position, the players around them at times have to help because of their shortcomings. Of course there's no guarantee how a player will perform. That's why you look at the history of players at certain positions and use that in your evaluation of consideration.

Picking for need, specifically in the first, drastically lessens your chance of getting a top notch player because in any given year, that position group is not going to be as talented as players at the top of other groups. So you're taking a player of lesser talent, in a position you're weak, in a spot that's usually reserved for guys that are at the top of their position group. NFL teams want the most talented players that they can get, regardless of position. That's why you take the most talented players at the top of the draft and take players in a position of need later in the draft, because later rounds are filled with guys of more equal talent.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-09-2021, 01:08 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sadly it is pattern with some to derail threads. We have all done it, but some seem to thrive on it yet it goes unpunished.

Good thread and hope it is not deleted, maybe some posts in it should be deleted though!

Nah, there's no reason to delete it. There's plenty of good discussion going on. 

[*Synric*]

Saying you shouldn't take a player because theres a possibility you can get the same or better player later in the draft based on history is a very very bad way to look at the draft.

You watch the prospect. That's all that matters.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2021, 01:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Ertz may be available. I would love to bring him in to team with Sample and Uz. Then, we would not have to reach for Pitts at #5, but I do like Pitts, just not at #5.

I can't see the Bengals keeping Uzomah at his salary while also paying for Ertz. More than likely, Uzomah would have to be cut so that the extra cap space can help cover the cost of Ertz. My only nervousness for bringing in Ertz is that he's already 30 years old and this team probably isn't a contender next year. I think the Bengals are probably at least a year or two from contending at the earliest.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2021, 01:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If history repeats and we take Reed in the 1st what ever team takes the next TE (Jordan, Freiermuth) will be getting a superstar. The last 2 times we drafted a TE in the first the next TEs off the board were Gronk and Ertz. Below are some other TEs that went outside the first round in those 2 drafts:

Jimmy Graham
Vance McDonald
Travis Kelce
Jordan Reed
Dennis Pitta

I like Freiermuth. He's been nicknamed Baby Gronk for a reason. Dude is a very well-rounded, big TE. He's not going to be as fast or agile as Pitts, but I expect he's going to be a very good TE in the NFL for years. I think Jordan can be good in the NFL too, but some teams might shy away from him due to his height. However, he's the same height as Evan Engram, who has been a good pass catcher when healthy.

If the Bengals went Sewell, Darrisaw, or Slater (or Surtain/Farley if WJ3 walks) in Rd 1, I could be on board with Freiermuth or Jordan in Rd 2.
I also like Charlie Kolar (TE Iowa St) in Rd 3-4.

[*bfine32*]

(01-09-2021, 02:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I like Freiermuth. He's been nicknamed Baby Gronk for a reason. Dude is a very well-rounded, big TE. He's not going to be as fast or agile as Pitts, but I expect he's going to be a very good TE in the NFL for years. I think Jordan can be good in the NFL too, but some teams might shy away from him due to his height. However, he's the same height as Evan Engram, who has been a good pass catcher when healthy.

If the Bengals went Sewell, Darrisaw, or Slater (or Surtain/Farley if WJ3 walks) in Rd 1, I could be on board with Freiermuth or Jordan in Rd 2.
I also like Charlie Kolar (TE Iowa St) in Rd 3-4.

According to PFF Jordan actually had 98 more yards after catch than Pitts did last year. I'd be good with Pitts at #5 or Brevin in the 2nd. My hope would be injury and size concerns push BJ down to the 3rd. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-09-2021, 02:11 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Because professional sports are leagues of talent. The most talented players give you the best results, regardless of position, which lessens the burden on other positions around them. If you have an average player at a position, the players around them at times have to help because of their shortcomings. Of course there's no guarantee how a player will perform. That's why you look at the history of players at certain positions and use that in your evaluation of consideration.

Picking for need, specifically in the first, drastically lessens your chance of getting a top notch player because in any given year, that position group is not going to be as talented as players at the top of other groups. So you're taking a player of lesser talent, in a position you're weak, in a spot that's usually reserved for guys that are at the top of their position group. NFL teams want the most talented players that they can get, regardless of position. That's why you take the most talented players at the top of the draft and take players in a position of need later in the draft, because later rounds are filled with guys of more equal talent.

Stop trying to apply logic around here geeeezzz