Patrick Surtain II

[*psychdoctor*]

I know some will not like the idea, not sure myself, but Surtain with Bates along with Phillips, Mac or WJ3 sure would make the secondary daunting.

Another CB I really like is Jaycee Horn.

I know the defense issue is the line however, and rushing has been a sore for several years.

Top 5 defenses in gap between DVOA with and without pressure, usually indicative of a strong secondary.

49ers
Bengals
Bills
Broncos
Vikings (!)

Bottom 5 defenses in this gap (i.e. much better *with* pressure)

Eagles
Packers (!)
WFT
Jets
Dolphins (!)

— Aaron Schatz ? (@FO_ASchatz) January 13, 2021

[*ochocincos*]

(01-13-2021, 03:57 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I know some will not like the idea, not sure myself, but Surtain with Bates along with Phillips, Mac or WJ3 sure would make the secondary daunting.    

Another CB I really like is Jaycee Horn.  

I know the defense issue is the line however, and rushing has been a sore for several years.  

Top 5 defenses in gap between DVOA with and without pressure, usually indicative of a strong secondary.

49ers
Bengals
Bills
Broncos
Vikings (!)

Bottom 5 defenses in this gap (i.e. much better *with* pressure)

Eagles
Packers (!)
WFT
Jets
Dolphins (!)

— Aaron Schatz ? (@FO_ASchatz) January 13, 2021

Did you intentionally leave out Waynes?

I can see Surtain being drafted based on two scenarios:
- Bengals do not re-sign WJ3
- Bengals do re-sign WJ3 but plan for Surtain to take over for Waynes in 2022/2023

Surtain or Farley would be about the only defensive player I would be ok with at 5. But I think the pick will be offense if they don't trade back.

[Okeana]

(01-13-2021, 03:57 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I know some will not like the idea, not sure myself, but Surtain with Bates along with Phillips, Mac or WJ3 sure would make the secondary daunting.    

Another CB I really like is Jaycee Horn.  

I know the defense issue is the line however, and rushing has been a sore for several years.  

Top 5 defenses in gap between DVOA with and without pressure, usually indicative of a strong secondary.

49ers
Bengals
Bills
Broncos
Vikings (!)

Bottom 5 defenses in this gap (i.e. much better *with* pressure)

Eagles
Packers (!)
WFT
Jets
Dolphins (!)

— Aaron Schatz ? (@FO_ASchatz) January 13, 2021

Surtain isn't going to be the upgrade over WJ3 that Chase will be over AJ Green at this point.  I've been hitting tape on Chase again after the championship game this week and dude is just a step above.  I think the CB class is above average this year, but I don't see any of these guys are superstar top 10 talents.

[XenoMorph]

WFT took me a second i read it as WTF lol

[*bfine32*]

The thing I like best about Surtain is I recently watched the Championship game and didn't hear his name. Absolutely no issue with taking him at #5OA

[Hammerstripes]

(01-13-2021, 06:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The thing I like best about Surtain is I recently watched the Championship game and didn't hear his name. Absolutely no issue with taking him at #5OA

I wouldn't have a problem with him, but I'd have an issue drafting a CB in round 1 if we bring back WJ3 and Mac.  

I actually think CB is one of our smaller needs at this point.  It's just too bad this draft is weak at the edge spot at the top.

[Okeana]

(01-13-2021, 06:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The thing I like best about Surtain is I recently watched the Championship game and didn't hear his name. Absolutely no issue with taking him at #5OA

1.  They played an extremely overmatched OSU team
2.  They did say his name in the game when he missed the interception thrown into his arms in the endzone
3.  OSU has basically 1 wide receiver that will be a round 2 guy in Olave

I'm not saying he's not a good prospect, but he's not a top 10 corner.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I’m a big fan of Surtain. He’s pretty much the only defensive player I’d be ok with at 5. That said, I want OL or a weapon for Burrow more.

If the first 4 picks were Lawrence, Sewell, Smith, Chase, the decision between Pitts and Surtain would be really tough for me. Surtain would probably be the smarter choice there, but Pitts would be a real swing for the fences type pick.

[DYT_Bengal]

(01-13-2021, 07:33 PM)Okeana Wrote: 1.  They played an extremely overmatched OSU team
2.  They did say his name in the game when he missed the interception thrown into his arms in the endzone
3.  OSU has basically 1 wide receiver that will be a round 2 guy in Olave

I'm not saying he's not a good prospect, but he's not a top 10 corner.

He’s one of the strangest corner backs I’ve scouted. He is terrible at contesting catches but great in coverage. Would be dominant with better ball skills. I don’t know how possible it is to develop that trait but wouldn’t draft him in the first if he couldn’t.

[Essex Johnson]

Good with Surtain depending on FA... i do believe he is best CB and like that though he is a junior is a 3 year starter and played this year.. that is my concern with some other picks being talked about.. lack of experience..and/or did not play this year

[Bengal Dude]

We know how the Bengals feel about there 1st round CBs. I have a feeling that Surtain will be their highest rated defender on the board. If this team surprises us with another active free agency and gets OL and WR help, then I fully expect us to go with a CB or trade down and still take a CB.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-13-2021, 10:23 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: We know how the Bengals feel about there 1st round CBs. I have a feeling that Surtain will be their highest rated defender on the board. If this team surprises us with another active free agency and gets OL and WR help, then I fully expect us to go with a CB or trade down and still take a CB.

Was it Tobin or Marvin that was obsessed with the 1st round CB’s though? Didn’t Marvin think Dennard was the “best CB prospect he’d ever seen” or some such?

[SunsetBengal]

(01-13-2021, 10:23 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: We know how the Bengals feel about there 1st round CBs. I have a feeling that Surtain will be their highest rated defender on the board. If this team surprises us with another active free agency and gets OL and WR help, then I fully expect us to go with a CB or trade down and still take a CB.

I know that CB was big on Mike's premium player list, and they did well with that strategy for a while.  However, I also feel like Dennard, Kirkpatrick and Jackson haven't quite lived up to the expectations of their predecessors.  I also feel that the change in philosophy where they now are really strong at Safety allows them to get away with playing quality, but less than elite CBs.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-13-2021, 10:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Was it Tobin or Marvin that was obsessed with the 1st round CB’s though? Didn’t Marvin think Dennard was the “best CB prospect he’d ever seen” or some such?

I believe Marvin and Duke both love CBs. I remember being thrilled with the Dennard pick. I thought we got ourselves another Leon Hall type player. Marvin did say Dennard was the best rookie CB he'd ever seen. That got plenty of us excited, me included. That led to Dennard getting 76 defensive snaps. Oh well.

(01-13-2021, 11:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I know that CB was big on Mike's premium player list, and they did well with that strategy for a while.  However, I also feel like Dennard, Kirkpatrick and Jackson haven't quite lived up to the expectations of their predecessors.  I also feel that the change in philosophy where they now are really strong at Safety allows them to get away with playing quality, but less than elite CBs.

I know Guenther is kind of viewed as meh around here, his system really showed off WJ3's skills. WJ3 didn't care for Austin's system, he played hurt last year, and I think he's not a fan of Lou in general. 

As for CB, I feel like it'll be a higher priority than some realize. Jackson will be gone, Waynes is basically a younger Dre who is willing to tackle, Alexander is a free agent, and Phillips is a boom/bust type player with injury problems. Sims has to go and after him we just have some RFAs who only got playing time due to a lot of injuries.

[Jpoore]

I do not want a cb who struggles with massive question marks with deep speed. Caleb Farley is cb1. If we go cb, that’s who I want.

[CJD]

I wouldn't have a problem with Surtain at #5, assuming he is considered worth that selection. I haven't done a lot of research on him, but if he's being considered I would expect him to be a Jalen Ramsey/Patrick Peterson level talent. That'd be a nice player to have on our team.

That said, I think a quality pass rush is more important than a quality secondary. Especially since we already have one high priced CB in Waynes and a soon to be high priced safety in Bates. I would prefer, if we do go defense at #5, that we take a pass rusher who will make our current secondary's life easier, rather than taking another CB who will have to cover his man for 5 second every play because we get no pressure on the QB.

[QueenCity]

I would be disappointed if we went with Surtain at pick #5..... just sign back Jackson and call it a day at that position.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-14-2021, 11:32 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I wouldn't have a problem with Surtain at #5, assuming he is considered worth that selection. I haven't done a lot of research on him, but if he's being considered I would expect him to be a Jalen Ramsey/Patrick Peterson level talent. That'd be a nice player to have on our team.

That said, I think a quality pass rush is more important than a quality secondary. Especially since we already have one high priced CB in Waynes and a soon to be high priced safety in Bates. I would prefer, if we do go defense at #5, that we take a pass rusher who will make our current secondary's life easier, rather than taking another CB who will have to cover his man for 5 second every play because we get no pressure on the QB.

This is where I am on the idea of drafting defense at #5.  Improving the pass rush will make the Secondary and even LBs more effective in coverage.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-14-2021, 11:51 AM)QueenCity Wrote: I would be disappointed if we went with Surtain at pick #5..... just sign back Jackson and call it a day at that position.

Might not be that easy. WJ3 could want to go elsewhere. Or we might not want to pay him what the market will say he’s worth. He’s going to be the top FA CB.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-14-2021, 11:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: This is where I am on the idea of drafting defense at #5.  Improving the pass rush will make the Secondary and even LBs more effective in coverage.

But there’s no pass rushers really worth a top 5 pick. Most of the best value guys are probably going to be 2nd rounders.