Roster Bonuses & the Cap

[Okeana]

(02-02-2021, 05:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: "We're not in the business of making other teams better." - Mike Brown

hows that worked out for you Mr Brown lmao

[Okeana]

(02-02-2021, 05:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Whittworth was offered almost the same amount of money, but for one less contract year. We have rehashed this a thousand times, Bengals made a solid offer to keep him, but his wife was upset they drafted not one but 2 replacements for him.

Mama not happy, noone is happy. So blame it on a bad draft decision (man was it bad), but don't act like Whitt walked due to bad offer from the team, if you state that, it is a lie.

As for Jones, he was a #2 receiver when he played here and has stayed a #2 receiver. He wanted to be #1 (over AJ) and be paid like a #1 WR so Bengals let him walk. Those are the facts as I know them.

I don't blame them for Jones, he was in a position to make money and he took it.  They could have been proactive and extended him a year earlier and maybe avoided it, but it happens.  

Whitworth on the other hand meant a lot to this organization and sometimes you need to pay more to show your appreciation to a guy who outperformed previous contracts.  Give him that extra year on the contract and pay him a million more with a fair guaranteed amount that way if he declines you have an out.  For me the Whitworth blunder is potentially the biggest mistake this team has ever made, it made this place less desirable for free agents and it ruined the offensive line group.  

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2021, 05:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Whittworth was offered almost the same amount of money, but for one less contract year. We have rehashed this a thousand times, Bengals made a solid offer to keep him, but his wife was upset they drafted not one but 2 replacements for him.

Mama not happy, noone is happy. So blame it on a bad draft decision (man was it bad), but don't act like Whitt walked due to bad offer from the team, if you state that, it is a lie.

As for Jones, he was a #2 receiver when he played here and has stayed a #2 receiver. He wanted to be #1 (over AJ) and be paid like a #1 WR so Bengals let him walk. Those are the facts as I know them.

I apologize for implying the offer was "way" lower than what they got. I know it wasn't significantly lower.
At the end of the day, it was two good players who walked out. The Bengals' offer was not appealing enough to keep them. contract isn't just about APY. It's also about length. The Bengals reportedly offered two years, but he wanted more, and he found a team that offered it.
It took Bengals three years to get a good enough WR2 comparable to Marvin Jones.
The Bengals still don't have a LT near the level of Whitworth.
Zeitler is probably a better example in terms of being lowballed. The Bengals have come nowhere near finding a good RG since Zeitler left.

[XenoMorph]

(02-02-2021, 06:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I apologize for implying the offer was "way" lower than what they got. I know it wasn't significantly lower.
At the end of the day, it was two good players who walked out. The Bengals' offer was not appealing enough to keep them. contract isn't just about APY. It's also about length. The Bengals reportedly offered two years, but he wanted more, and he found a team that offered it.
It took Bengals three years to get a good enough WR2 comparable to Marvin Jones.
The Bengals still don't have a LT near the level of Whitworth.
Zeitler is probably a better example in terms of being lowballed. The Bengals have come nowhere near finding a good RG since Zeitler left.

still if people leave cause you dont over pay them not much you can do..

Have you ever noticed most the dudes that sign these huge over market value deals never see most the money at the end of the contract (the big money years not signing bonus related)  some day they might too.

So lets talk about whitworth the average lifespan of a LT in the NFL his age at the time and the fact we needed to get his replacement playing.

No one expected whit to make it to 40 and playing at a high level.   its just super rare in the NFL let alone an OL guy.  so at 35 i think at the time we had his replacement on deck.  We offered him another year but he wanted long term investment which when you have a 1st round pick waiting vs a guy wanting a contract till 40 and is already at the age most never make it to.   You generally have to roll with what the numbers say.

Hinesight is always 20/20 but no one has a working crystal ball.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2021, 06:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: still if people leave cause you dont over pay them not much you can do..

Have you ever noticed most the dudes that sign these huge over market value deals never see most the money at the end of the contract (the big money years not signing bonus related)  some day they might too.

So lets talk about whitworth the average lifespan of a LT in the NFL his age at the time and the fact we needed to get his replacement playing.

No one expected whit to make it to 40 and playing at a high level.   its just super rare in the NFL let alone an OL guy.  so at 35 i think at the time we had his replacement on deck.  We offered him another year but he wanted long term investment which when you have a 1st round pick waiting vs a guy wanting a contract till 40 and is already at the age most never make it to.   You generally have to roll with what the numbers say.

Hinesight is always 20/20 but no one has a working crystal ball.

Hindsight is 20/20 but they still didn't do a good job finding a quality replacement. Ogbuehi and Fisher were terrible. Glenn was ok at times but was unhappy once the Bengals drafted Jonah and Glenn potentially shifting to LG. Jonah was arguably the best OL on the team last year, but he's not close to Whit yet.

At the end of the day, the Bengals have downgraded a lot of positions compared to 2015. That's why they are so bad.

[Luvnit2]

(02-02-2021, 06:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: still if people leave cause you dont over pay them not much you can do..

Have you ever noticed most the dudes that sign these huge over market value deals never see most the money at the end of the contract (the big money years not signing bonus related)  some day they might too.

So lets talk about whitworth the average lifespan of a LT in the NFL his age at the time and the fact we needed to get his replacement playing.

No one expected whit to make it to 40 and playing at a high level.   its just super rare in the NFL let alone an OL guy.  so at 35 i think at the time we had his replacement on deck.  We offered him another year but he wanted long term investment which when you have a 1st round pick waiting vs a guy wanting a contract till 40 and is already at the age most never make it to.   You generally have to roll with what the numbers say.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but no one has a working crystal ball.

Very well stated. I never thought Whitt would still be playing at a high level, I am happy for him but to blame the Bengals FO for that decision and the offer they made is stretch in my opinion.

As far as the MJ loss, isn't the bigger issue in both cases our coaching staff and our FO did not sign and develop their replacement. Isn't that the consistent issue with our Bengals, our coaching staffs seem to lack in player development (training) and FO missed with Fisher and Cedric big time setting us back for years on the OL.

[Wes Mantooth]

I'd like to see some people who are claiming the Bengls offer was virtually the same, minus an extra year, provide some links to back that up. I'm not saying they're completely making it up, or that there's not things out there that support this idea, but just that I haven't seen that and I'd be curious to read it.

Going off the big man's words himself, the Bengls offered him "50-60% of what every other team offered". Now, I can definitely see that his percentages may not be exact (maybe they offered 75%, or maybe he's speaking in terms of guarantees), but I don't think he would provide a quote like this that's completely unfounded, to the point of just completely making it up.

I encourage everyone to read this following article that I will link below. Not just for the quote and details just referenced, but because you can see just how much the Blackburns are involved. When you consider everything, this article, Troy's comments on Bobby Hart, Mike's comments on Katie's role years back, the news that Katie and Troy lead the coaching search... I think it's very clear why we're so bad.

Katie and Troy Blackburn have handled most of the "day-today", as Mike calls it, going back 5 years. According to MB, he still has some say, but it's their show. Is it any coincidence that this timeline lines up perfectly with our team going into the toilet? I think not.

Katie and her lawyer husband, who shouldn't be involved in anything, are even worse than the old man. And if f it wasn't for Mike stepping in, Whitworth would have been gone a season earlier than he was if the Blakburns had the way. Read for yourself...

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/andrew-whitworth-bengals-offer

[Wes Mantooth]

This video is embedded into the article I just linked, but just in case anybody doesn't want to read through it or missed it, I encourage you to watch it.

It's Whitworth talking with Willie Anderson, and it's just from this last summer.  The first 8 minutes or so describes his entire extension negotiations with the Bengals, and specifically Katie and Troy.  I think it provides tremendous insight into how all of this played out, and just how imcompetent those two are.  

I highly recommend taking a few minutes to watch it, to hear from the horses mouth what went down over a 2 year period leading up to his departure.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CA_u9LoJlhk/?utm_source=ig_embed

[Essex Johnson]

(02-02-2021, 05:27 PM)Okeana Wrote: you pay for what you get.  You pay shit you get shit.  Either you draft and develop or you end up with Bobby Hart.  Knowing this team they will extend hart for 12 million a year.

Hart was not shit,looking at his numbers objectively especially this year compared to others in his price range he out performed most.. and we paid n
Market value for Glenn.
Did we get what we paid for???

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-02-2021, 03:04 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So what did we do that was effective in the 5 year run of playoffs that is different now ?  do we need to go back to what we were doing from 2011-15 but improve on it to win in the post-season

Better drafts.  But, IMHO, if you whiff on your drafts then you HAVE to try and cover for those draft errors with FAs.  

[XenoMorph]

(02-02-2021, 08:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This video is embedded into the article I just linked, but just in case anybody doesn't want to read through it or missed it, I encourage you to watch it.

It's Whitworth talking with Willie Anderson, and it's just from this last summer.  The first 8 minutes or so describes his entire extension negotiations with the Bengals, and specifically Katie and Troy.  I think it provides tremendous insight into how all of this played out, and just how imcompetent those two are.  

I highly recommend taking a few minutes to watch it, to hear from the horses mouth what went down over a 2 year period leading up to his departure.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CA_u9LoJlhk/?utm_source=ig_embed

i can believe those two are incompetent.. since they took over we have signed some big contracts to really bad players.

[Luvnit2]

(02-02-2021, 08:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This video is embedded into the article I just linked, but just in case anybody doesn't want to read through it or missed it, I encourage you to watch it.

It's Whitworth talking with Willie Anderson, and it's just from this last summer.  The first 8 minutes or so describes his entire extension negotiations with the Bengals, and specifically Katie and Troy.  I think it provides tremendous insight into how all of this played out, and just how imcompetent those two are.  

I highly recommend taking a few minutes to watch it, to hear from the horses mouth what went down over a 2 year period leading up to his departure.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CA_u9LoJlhk/?utm_source=ig_embed

It is a great interview. I just wish it was an interview with all parties and not one sided. I will try and dig it it up, but not sure Whitt is not talking 50/60% of a one year deal offered versus a 2 year deal.

But in the end, Whitt and Anderson both say similar things, they felt disrespected how they were treated by the FO last few years in their career. But both give props to ML

[grampahol]

C'mon..Mikey is still saving up for the new and improved coal powered Chevy Lumina. Just you wait and see if it doesn't make a huge comeback! 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2021, 08:40 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Hart was not shit,looking at his numbers objectively especially this year compared to others in his price range he out performed most.. and we paid n
Market value for Glenn.
Did we get what we paid for???

Someone like Hart can work if the rest of the OL is good. An OL can afford a mediocre piece or even two.
Problem is that Hart wasn't the worst performer on the OL. He was the 2nd/3rd best overall OL behind Jonah Williams and maybe Trey Hopkins.
If you can upgrade at least two of the OL positions, you MIGHT be able to get away with Hart at RT.

[grampahol]

Mikey is buying coal powered offensive linemen .. 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2021, 05:42 PM)Okeana Wrote: hows that worked out for you Mr Brown lmao

"Hey, we've only been the worst team in the league twice in the past 20 years! Not being worst is more important than being the best!" - Mike Brown

[Luvnit2]

(02-03-2021, 11:41 AM)grampahol Wrote: C'mon..Mikey is still saving up for the new and improved coal powered Chevy Lumina. Just you wait and see if it doesn't make a huge comeback! 

Gramps the rhetoric which has been proven false over and over again is as old as you. You need to come up with new material, this crap is stale and factually untrue. MB does invest in his players, that is a fact supported by his cash spend on player contracts each year.

[XenoMorph]

(02-03-2021, 11:33 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is a great interview. I just wish it was an interview with all parties and not one sided. I will try and dig it it up, but not sure Whitt is not talking 50/60% of a one year deal offered versus a 2 year deal.

But in the end, Whitt and Anderson both say similar things, they felt disrespected how they were treated by the FO last in their career. But both give props to ML

i wonder if Zach already has more say for retaining or getting players than marvin ever did.. and if so why lol

[Luvnit2]

(02-03-2021, 03:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: i wonder if Zach already has more say for retaining or getting players than marvin ever did.. and if so why lol

I am not sure, but seems ML should have been more involved, sounds as though he has the pulse of the vets, MB and rest did not on the FO.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-03-2021, 03:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: i wonder if Zach already has more say for retaining or getting players than marvin ever did.. and if so why lol

Maybe at some point over recent years, Mike Brown was (more) willing to give that power to the HC, but not so much back when Marvin came in.
If so, it could explain why Taylor could get more decision-making power whereas Marvin didn't.
It could be that Marvin asked in the mid-2000's but Brown said no and he just never bothered pushing for it again.