Hmm..1st Round OT bust in Tenn.

[Luvnit2]

Buried in an article on Tennessee wanting JJ Watt is this gem.

https://www.nfl.com/news/titans-gm-jon-robinson-jj-watt-isaiah-wilson-better-offseason

"We did a lot of work a year ago leading up to selecting him -- the evaluation process, talking to different sources, visiting with him countless numbers of times," Robinson said. "For whatever reason, the player that, this fall, was here in Nashville wasn't the guy that we spent time with last year.

"I think he's gonna have to make a determination if he wants to do everything necessary to play pro football. That's going to be on him. I know what the expectation level is here. It's no different than any other player on the football team. We have a certain standard that we want players to prepare and perform at professionally, and as people, and (there is) a lot of work to be done there."

When pressed on the matter, Robinson admitted he's not certain Wilson has a future in Nashville, responding, "We'll see."

"We've got to continue to find guys that love ball," Robinson said. "Guys that actually want to play the game of pro football."

To listen to some Bengals fans, we are only team to miss on 1st round draft picks. Tennessee had a very good team, so big miss for them with that pick and also Clowney as a FA in 2020.

[fredtoast]

The draft is a much bigger crap shoot than any "expert" wants to admit. Even the best teams miss on high draft picks from time to time, and there are always a few players in the later rounds that were passed over by all 32 teams but outplay guys drafted much higher.

However, until last year the Bengals were on one of the worst string of first round busts ever.

[Luvnit2]

(02-16-2021, 07:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The draft is a much bigger crap shoot than any "expert" wants to admit.  Even the best teams miss on high draft picks from time to time, and there are always a few players in the later rounds that were passed over by all 32 teams but outplay guys drafted much higher.

However, until last year the Bengals were on one of the worst string of first round busts ever.

Yep, we went from a very solid roster to a bad roster due to poor drafts.

They say the 2021 draft may be the hardest yet for all teams due to restrictions on combine and more importantly checking out the health of players. Then there is a bunch of guys who sat out 2020 so no way to know, did the progress, regress or stay the same.

[SunsetBengal]

I think a part of the problem with extremely talented players not producing at their expected level in the NFL, as they did in college, has a lot to do with not being prepared to manage one's own life as an adult. This isn't meant to be a personal knock on any specific individuals, just a conclusion that I've come to from nearly 52 years of life experience.

What you have, is young men who have been accustomed to having most every detail of their life, every minute of their time and activity directed by others, with the sole purpose of getting them to the NFL. Once they sign the contract, they're pretty much on their own. They suddenly have a good deal of money in their hands, often times much more than that of the level they were raised at. Their time is suddenly their own; No coaches, trainers, tutors to be responsible to anymore; To a degree, one could arrive at the conclusion that their might be a huge void that comes with advancing to the next level.

Many of these young men are brought to their absolute peak of talent and physical ability at the collegiate level, because their is no "off the clock" time. The structure, the focus, the guidance, and all of the other accessories that come with being a part of an elite college program are now missing from their lives. Are most young men with sudden money, but no coaches, trainers, and dieticians monitoring their every day going to make the best nutritional choices? Likely not. Are most young men that feel like they "made it" going to keep focusing on improving the weakest parts of their game, their physical condition, their mental toughness without someone calling on them and leading them to do it? Likely not.

So, what is to do about it? Is it the league's job to coddle these guys, prompt them to eat right, work out properly, maintain focus, make adult decisions, etc.? Not really. Once you're in the pros, you're expected to conduct and carry yourself as a professional individual who makes a living from abusing his body 3 hrs per week, 16 or more times per season. The sad reality is that many of these guys "maxed out" at the collegiate level, because they are incapable of holding themselves to the same standard as they were in the program they came from.

The issue of high level players "busting" at the NFL level oftentimes has less to do with raw talent and ability, than it does with personal maturity and self discipline. In my opinion, the NFL could do far more for the younger players by providing mentorship, assistance with structuring the players time toward cultivating professional lives, than they do with some of the PR stuff they have delved into in recent years. Apologies for the rant. When I read the OP, it just got me to thinking about the number of "can't miss" prospects that have busted over the years, and contemplating on reasons why that might happen.

[Luvnit2]

(02-16-2021, 08:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think a part of the problem with extremely talented players not producing at their expected level in the NFL, as they did in college, has a lot to do with not being prepared to manage one's own life as an adult.  This isn't meant to be a personal knock on any specific individuals, just a conclusion that I've come to from nearly 52 years of life experience.

What you have, is young men who have been accustomed to having most every detail of their life, every minute of their time and activity directed by others, with the sole purpose of getting them to the NFL.  Once they sign the contract, they're pretty much on their own.  They suddenly have a good deal of money in their hands, often times much more than that of the level they were raised at.  Their time is suddenly their own;  No coaches, trainers, tutors to be responsible to anymore; To a degree, one could arrive at the conclusion that their might be a huge void that comes with advancing to the next level.

Many of these young men are brought to their absolute peak of talent and physical ability at the collegiate level, because their is no "off the clock" time.  The structure, the focus, the guidance, and all of the other accessories that come with being a part of an elite college program are now missing from their lives.  Are most young men with sudden money, but no coaches, trainers, and dieticians monitoring their every day going to make the best nutritional choices?  Likely not.  Are most young men that feel like they "made it" going to keep focusing on improving the weakest parts of their game, their physical condition, their mental toughness without someone calling on them and leading them to do it?  Likely not.

So, what is to do about it?  Is it the league's job to coddle these guys, prompt them to eat right, work out properly, maintain focus, make adult decisions, etc.?  Not really.  Once you're in the pros, you're expected to conduct and carry yourself as a professional individual who makes a living from abusing his body 3 hrs per week, 16 or more times per season.  The sad reality is that many of these guys "maxed out" at the collegiate level, because they are incapable of holding themselves to the same standard as they were in the program they came from.  

The issue of high level players "busting" at the NFL level oftentimes has less to do with raw talent and ability, than it does with personal maturity and self discipline.  In my opinion, the NFL could do far more for the younger players by providing mentorship, assistance with structuring the players time toward cultivating professional lives, than they do with some of the PR stuff they have delved into in recent years.  Apologies for the rant.  When I read the OP, it just got me to thinking about the number of "can't miss" prospects that have busted over the years, and contemplating on reasons why that might happen.

Great points

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(02-16-2021, 08:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think a part of the problem with extremely talented players not producing at their expected level in the NFL, as they did in college, has a lot to do with not being prepared to manage one's own life as an adult.  This isn't meant to be a personal knock on any specific individuals, just a conclusion that I've come to from nearly 52 years of life experience.

What you have, is young men who have been accustomed to having most every detail of their life, every minute of their time and activity directed by others, with the sole purpose of getting them to the NFL.  Once they sign the contract, they're pretty much on their own.  They suddenly have a good deal of money in their hands, often times much more than that of the level they were raised at.  Their time is suddenly their own;  No coaches, trainers, tutors to be responsible to anymore; To a degree, one could arrive at the conclusion that their might be a huge void that comes with advancing to the next level.

Many of these young men are brought to their absolute peak of talent and physical ability at the collegiate level, because their is no "off the clock" time.  The structure, the focus, the guidance, and all of the other accessories that come with being a part of an elite college program are now missing from their lives.  Are most young men with sudden money, but no coaches, trainers, and dieticians monitoring their every day going to make the best nutritional choices?  Likely not.  Are most young men that feel like they "made it" going to keep focusing on improving the weakest parts of their game, their physical condition, their mental toughness without someone calling on them and leading them to do it?  Likely not.

So, what is to do about it?  Is it the league's job to coddle these guys, prompt them to eat right, work out properly, maintain focus, make adult decisions, etc.?  Not really.  Once you're in the pros, you're expected to conduct and carry yourself as a professional individual who makes a living from abusing his body 3 hrs per week, 16 or more times per season.  The sad reality is that many of these guys "maxed out" at the collegiate level, because they are incapable of holding themselves to the same standard as they were in the program they came from.  

The issue of high level players "busting" at the NFL level oftentimes has less to do with raw talent and ability, than it does with personal maturity and self discipline.  In my opinion, the NFL could do far more for the younger players by providing mentorship, assistance with structuring the players time toward cultivating professional lives, than they do with some of the PR stuff they have delved into in recent years.  Apologies for the rant.  When I read the OP, it just got me to thinking about the number of "can't miss" prospects that have busted over the years, and contemplating on reasons why that might happen.

The Players Union doesn't help the young players much (aside from selling them out on pay in favor of the veterans) as the collective bargaining agreement severely limits the amount of time coaching staff get with them. That's all well and good when you're an established veteran but when you're starting out in the league and trying to establish yourself you probably need that extra guidance and in many cases structure around them. The collective bargaining agreement prevents that.

[CJD]

The Bengals have been the worst drafting team in the NFL since 2011, according to Profootballreference.com.

But not by a huge amount. We are one of 8 teams that got less value than expected out of the picks we made, based on charting all draft picks made over the last 10 years on a scale of expected approximate value per game compared to actual AV/G.

I think this is because we had an unexpectedly high number of failed first round picks this decade, with Dre Kirkpatrick (a long term starter but definitely not a great player), Kevin Zeitler (solid guard, never been pro bowl worthy), Tyler Eifert (who was great when healthy, but rarely healthy), Darqueze Dennard (If your first round pick is just a slot CB who can't get more than a 1 year deal on the open market, you messed up), Cedric Ogbuehi (ugh), WJIII (like Dre, a good starter, but not a great player by any means), John Ross (ugh), Billy Price (ugh), Jonah Williams (great when healthy, has ended both of his seasons injured thus far) and Joe Burrow (great rookie year, but ended in injury).

Also worth noting, we haven't drafted a pro bowl player in any round since 2013 in Tyler Eifert, who only made it once.

I don't think the Bengals' drafting issues are overblown relative to the rest of the NFL. There's a very real and very obvious deficiency in our drafting. But I don't think it's as severe as some on here think. I've seen people on the Bengals reddit say we need to draft Sewell because we can't trust the Bengals to find a good offensive lineman in the entire rest of the draft, so Sewell is our one and only shot. Obviously, that viewpoint is silly. But we do need to improve in our drafting if we hope to build a team around Burrow.

In Zac's two drafts so far, I would say he did really well in 2020, not so well in 2019. I'm willing to give 2019's Drew Sample, Ryan Finley and Michael Jordan selections a pass because he was a first year coach who spent a fair amount of the scouting window finding his coaching staff, so maybe they didn't have time to evaluate all the players. Especially since I think he got great value in 2020 with Burrow, Higgins, Wilson, ADG and Adeniji.

Here's hoping he continues the 2020 trend in 2021. We need a really good draft this year if we hope to compete.

[XenoMorph]

(02-16-2021, 07:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The draft is a much bigger crap shoot than any "expert" wants to admit.  Even the best teams miss on high draft picks from time to time, and there are always a few players in the later rounds that were passed over by all 32 teams but outplay guys drafted much higher.

However, until last year the Bengals were on one of the worst string of first round busts ever.

which is why i am almost always okay trading picks for established players

[Interceptor]

Maybe it's time to acquire a GM (but a legit one).

[SunsetBengal]

(02-17-2021, 11:39 AM)Interceptor Wrote: Maybe it's time to acquire a GM (but a legit one).

Seems like we've brought that up on here, once or twice, over the years..  :giggle:

[NATI BENGALS]

Never know what’s going to happen when you make a young 20s something year old a millionaire for playing a game

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-16-2021, 07:10 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To listen to some Bengals fans, we are only team to miss on 1st round draft picks.

The problem is that the Bengals are so heavily reliant on the draft to get their talent that a missed 1st round pick hurts more for the Bengals than it does most other teams.

Bengals miss on a 1st rounder and he hangs around 3-4 years adding negative value.
Another team misses on a 1st rounder and they have FA and trades to try to fill that gap.

The Broncos took Tim Tebow in the 1st round in 2010, they had a good team around them, so they went out and signed Peyton Manning and added some more other pieces in FA. They went to 1 SB and won another.

The Buccaneers took Jameis Winston 1st overall and while he wasn't bad, he never took the next step despite having a ton of talent around him. So did they draft another QB, or stick with Winston? No, they went out, got Brady, and won a SB.

Other teams are able to make up for missed draft picks easier than the Bengals with their mode of operation.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I don't know the full rankings, but they have drafted 1 Pro Bowler in the last 9 drafts, and that was Eifert, who only had the 1 year.

That's 1 out of the last 89 Bengals draft picks. That's not good.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2021, 06:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bengals miss on a 1st rounder and he hangs around 3-4 years adding negative value.

The Buccaneers took Jameis Winston 1st overall 

And Winston was their starter for 5 years instead of 3-4.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-18-2021, 08:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Winston was their starter for 5 years instead of 3-4.

And yet my point remains that even though he wasn't bad they recognized he wasn't going to push them over the edge and cut ties with a 1st overall pick and went out in FA to instantly fix the problem, and won a SB because of it. 

Meanwhile the Bengals stuck with Andy Dalton for 9 years despite it being obvious that while he could get you some regular season Ws on a good team, he couldn't push the team over the hump.

"Maybe this will finally be the year John Ross and Billy Price figure it out."
vs
"They're busts, we need to find solutions to replace them."

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2021, 08:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Meanwhile the Bengals stuck with Andy Dalton for 9 years despite it being obvious that while he could get you some regular season Ws on a good team, he couldn't push the team over the hump.

Tampa Bay cut ties with Winston after his fifth season.

No way they would have done that if he was 10-3 as a starter with the #2 passer rating in the league like Dalton was in his fifth season.

[Frank Booth]

(02-19-2021, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Tampa Bay cut ties with Winston after his fifth season.

No way they would have done that if he was 10-3 as a starter with the #2 passer rating in the league like Dalton was in his fifth season.

you cant talk to these people, fred. 

They're convinced guys like Mariota and Winston are better than Dalton

[*bfine32*]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/isaiah-wilson-claims-done-football-021600798.html

Quote:Charean Williams
Mon, February 22, 2021, 9:16 PM
Titans General Manager Jon Robinson said last week Isaiah Wilson has to “make a determination” if he wants to play.

The first-round draft choice apparently made a decision, if only briefly, tweeting, “Im done with football as a Titan… No further comments.”

Not surprisingly, the tweet didn’t have a long shelf life. It was deleted a few minutes later, no doubt after someone with Wilson’s best interest in mind offered sound advice.

Gotta say this is one I got wrong. Would have gladly taken him instead of Higgins.

[Bernards watch]

Pop a 7th rounder over and see if Pollack can make good on the potential?

[XenoMorph]

(02-16-2021, 07:10 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Buried in an article on Tennessee wanting JJ Watt is this gem.

https://www.nfl.com/news/titans-gm-jon-robinson-jj-watt-isaiah-wilson-better-offseason

"We did a lot of work a year ago leading up to selecting him -- the evaluation process, talking to different sources, visiting with him countless numbers of times," Robinson said. "For whatever reason, the player that, this fall, was here in Nashville wasn't the guy that we spent time with last year.

"I think he's gonna have to make a determination if he wants to do everything necessary to play pro football. That's going to be on him. I know what the expectation level is here. It's no different than any other player on the football team. We have a certain standard that we want players to prepare and perform at professionally, and as people, and (there is) a lot of work to be done there."

When pressed on the matter, Robinson admitted he's not certain Wilson has a future in Nashville, responding, "We'll see."

"We've got to continue to find guys that love ball," Robinson said. "Guys that actually want to play the game of pro football."

To listen to some Bengals fans, we are only team to miss on 1st round draft picks. Tennessee had a very good team, so big miss for them with that pick and also Clowney as a FA in 2020.

former 1st round bust.....    But im sure we can turn him around...

[WVUHomer]

(02-23-2021, 12:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: former 1st round bust.....    But im sure we can turn him around...

While he's leaning towards it, way too early to call him a bust. Like Bernard's Watch mentioned, I'd love a late round flyer on someone like him. Low risk, high reward that doesn't force you to put him on the field if he doesn't show in practice.