Why are we not extending our good players?

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-06-2021, 01:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) I would hope more fans would riot if we tagged Lawson.  Paying him 17 million dollars would be absolutely ridiculous.  He's nowhere near a top 5 DE.  Either get a long term deal done or move on.

2.) Really not sure why so many are ready to give up on Waynes without ever seeing him play in stripes. 

If the team was that high on Jackson they would have exercised his 5th year option, or worked out a long-term deal.  Instead they invested 16 mil into Waynes.

Waynes is going nowhere.  He carries 10 mil in dead cap.  I think people who want to pay Jackson (in addition to Waynes) are nuts.  We'd have like 30 mil tied up into CB1 and CB2, and neither are proven to be elite.

I'm sorry, William Jackson just isn't that good.  And this team doesn't have the luxury of paying out that much to a guy like him when they have so many holes.

This surprises me on both fronts.  There is an article about what Anarumon wants for the defense and the first thing he says is "pass rushers and corners", yet you are ready to move on from the best two the Bengals have in those catagories?

I can almost assure you that Lawson will be tagged.  They will still have time to work out a long-term deal, but it helps to prevent major decline for Lawson as he will have to perform at a high level again to get a top contract after next season.  The DE crop in the draft for 2022 might be much better and if the Bengals are able to address a lot of the issues on the offensive line THIS year, then maybe that becomes a focus for 2022.   It also allows them to potentially shift those dollars to Hubbard and Bates in 2022 should Lawson not perform at a top tier or be able to stay healthy.  I believe the date when teams can start placing the tag is 3/10. 

WJIII is another matter.  We have seen his potential, but he has been inconsistent.  Lots of rumors about how he may not want to be here.  I think the Bengals will offer him a fair contract (but most likely for three years) and allow him to shop.  He is supposed to be the $1 FA CB on the market.  If some other team offers him comparable, he may opt to go elsewhere.  That makes me very nervous because Phillips, while capable, has had trouble staying healthy.  We saw the massive drop off in talent when Sims was out there.  I guess the issue is your assessment that he just "isn't that good" when he is asked to cover longer than most CBs due to a lack of pass rush.  If we weaken that area, it won't help any of our CBs.  I would make a strong effort to keep WJIII even though you mentioned that $30 million for two starting CBs is too much for that position group.  I believe Waynes has an out on his contract after the 2021 season that allows the Bengals to get out of it without too much dead money or cap hit.  I forget the specifics.  I would want WJIII until I knew at least if Waynes was capable.  I could see a scenario where Lawson signs a deal and WJIII gets the FT.  


With fans in the stands, the cap will rise quickly again.  That should help with the long-term goals of signing Hubbard and Bates.  

[Destro]

Why would a good player want to stay on a bad team?

[fredtoast]

(03-07-2021, 04:04 PM)Destro Wrote: Why would a good player want to stay on a bad team?

Pretty much every player would trade the security of an extension over the chance of playing for free agency and getting injured.  Especially young stars just getting their second contract.  But when a team is in transition with new coaches players will be less likely to commit long term.

And no way Lawson gets an extension last off season coming off two straight injured seasons

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2021, 12:54 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I think the last legit extension I can think of for one of our really good players was Joe Mixon last off-season.

Why are we not/haven't we extended guys like WJ3, Bates, Lawson, etc.

Bates is a FA after this year. They are going to let Lawson and WJ3 walk...like what are we doing?

If I extend one of the ones you mention it is definitely Bates. WJ3 will be too expensive for what he brings and this is a great
FA class for Corners. Lawson has a injury history and there are younger Ends without this history. Bates though needs to be 
extended and we will have to pay him big but he is worth it IMO.

[Destro]

(03-07-2021, 04:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pretty much every player would trade the security of an extension over the chance of playing for free agency and getting injured.  Especially young stars just getting their second contract.  But when a team is in transition with new coaches players will be less likely to commit long term.

And no way Lawson gets an extension last off season coming off two straight injured seasons

Think we have seen time and time again players not resigning in hopes of a bigger pay day or playing elsewhere. See it here plenty of times. We even see "good" players, who are still under contract, wanting to get away from their current teams that they view as not being good enough. Some people want to win before their careers end. 

Figure a player has to know Cincinnati may not win or even make the playoffs next year. That could mean a whole new staffing shake-up, or they say they are improving and they keep the losers all together. Can see players who may not like either one of the options. 

[*bfine32*]

(03-07-2021, 04:04 PM)Destro Wrote: Why would a good player want to stay on a bad team?

Cause if you get enough of them it becomes a good team. 

Plus folks like money. 

[Destro]

(03-07-2021, 08:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Cause if you get enough of them it becomes a good team. 

Plus folks like money. 

But the player has not choice in if they get more/enough good players. They may figure the team may not get enough good players around them to win. It's not like the Bengals ever knocked anyone's socks off in getting those players, or even field a good team lately. Cowboys have been awful, but they try to bring in ballers constantly and actually get some. Bengals are a meme team and these players know it.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-07-2021, 09:30 PM)Destro Wrote: But the player has not choice in if they get more/enough good players. They may figure the team may not get enough good players around them to win. It's not like the Bengals ever knocked anyone's socks off in getting those players, or even field a good team lately. Cowboys have been awful, but they try to bring in ballers constantly and actually get some. Bengals are a meme team and these players know it.  

I am getting a bit tired of fans just saying we have no future. We have Joe frickin' Burrow...

He should make any player or fan have hope.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-07-2021, 10:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am getting a bit tired of fans just saying we have no future. We have Joe frickin' Burrow...

He should make any player or fan have hope.

I have a strange (but awesome...it is only strange because we haven't really seen it before last year) feeling the Bengals are going to do some really big things before the draft. 

Call me crazy (someone do it once, and everyone just rep that person a lot), but I think all the rumblings coming out of PBS are signals that they are not going to do the status quo.

If they draw attention to themselves with all this talk about "earning their stripes", having special things for season ticket holders, a Ring of Honor and only follow up with re-signing one guy like Lawson and needing to fill about 6 starting roles with the draft....well, it wouldn't be a good thing and I don't think that is what will happen.

There will surely be cuts in some places but I would imagine they will be making a pretty dramatic impact in FA and have us breathing fire heading in to the draft. 

I would imagine that I am the (vast) minority here, but I just have a feeling...They are going to come out swinging.  

[fredtoast]

(03-07-2021, 09:30 PM)Destro Wrote: But the player has not choice in if they get more/enough good players. They may figure the team may not get enough good players around them to win. It's not like the Bengals ever knocked anyone's socks off in getting those players, or even field a good team lately. Cowboys have been awful, but they try to bring in ballers constantly and actually get some. Bengals are a meme team and these players know it.  

You are talking theory.  We are talking reality.  Just look around the league.  Lots of good young players take extensions with teams that are not good.  And every year bad teams are able to sign good free agents if they pay enough.

Also players pay more attention to reality that fans like you.  For example they don't fawn over the cowboys and call the Bengals a "meme team" when the Bengals have made the playoffs TWICE as often as the Cowboys over the last 12 years.

[fredtoast]

(03-08-2021, 09:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There will surely be cuts in some places but I would imagine they will be making a pretty dramatic impact in FA and have us breathing fire heading in to the draft. 

I would imagine that I am the (vast) minority here, but I just have a feeling...They are going to come out swinging.  

Fans should not be that surprised considering what they did last year in free agency

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-08-2021, 11:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Fans should not be that surprised considering what they did last year in free agency

One year does not equal a trend, especially when that one year got your QB injured and won 4 games, but I was trying to share my positive belief that it will be a great offseason.  That hardly seems to be the sentiment around here.  

[XenoMorph]

(03-06-2021, 12:54 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I think the last legit extension I can think of for one of our really good players was Joe Mixon last off-season.

Why are we not/haven't we extended guys like WJ3, Bates, Lawson, etc.

Bates is a FA after this year. They are going to let Lawson and WJ3 walk...like what are we doing?

you see some players might want to test the market to see if they can make more money... Im sure there are offers on the table to some of them,

[XenoMorph]

(03-08-2021, 11:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One year does not equal a trend, especially when that one year got your QB injured and won 4 games, but I was trying to share my positive belief that it will be a great offseason.  That hardly seems to be the sentiment around here.  

Has to be a reason to optimistic... And they didnt give us many

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-08-2021, 09:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I have a strange (but awesome...it is only strange because we haven't really seen it before last year) feeling the Bengals are going to do some really big things before the draft. 

Call me crazy (someone do it once, and everyone just rep that person a lot), but I think all the rumblings coming out of PBS are signals that they are not going to do the status quo.

If they draw attention to themselves with all this talk about "earning their stripes", having special things for season ticket holders, a Ring of Honor and only follow up with re-signing one guy like Lawson and needing to fill about 6 starting roles with the draft....well, it wouldn't be a good thing and I don't think that is what will happen.

There will surely be cuts in some places but I would imagine they will be making a pretty dramatic impact in FA and have us breathing fire heading in to the draft. 

I would imagine that I am the (vast) minority here, but I just have a feeling...They are going to come out swinging.  

I have the same feeling strangely enough.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-06-2021, 03:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Title says "good" players. 2 of the 3 you listed are just "ok" players.

Those "ok" players are listed in every top 50 free agent list out there.

WJIII is widely considered the best free agent corner out there. Lawson is amongst the best free agent edges. The chances of the Bengals upgrading either position in free agency is remote.

The Bengals' issue is they don't have enough players of that caliber.

[Destro]

(03-08-2021, 11:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You are talking theory.  We are talking reality.  Just look around the league.  Lots of good young players take extensions with teams that are not good.  And every year bad teams are able to sign good free agents if they pay enough.

Also players pay more attention to reality that fans like you.  For example they don't fawn over the cowboys and call the Bengals a "meme team" when the Bengals have made the playoffs TWICE as often as the Cowboys over the last 12 years.

And plenty of players walk away. Watson and even Russel Wilson apparently want out. Forget extension, they already have a contract. Sure, some people sign extensions with teams that are not good. Sure, a few have done it with the Bengals. Truth is they are less likely to do so. Reality is those other teams versus the Bengals. Can throw out X,Y,Z as much as you like, but the Bengals is whom I am talking about. 
And the Bengals can be recent history: Losing very badly; 
mid range history: Losing the 1st round every year with most of those players and coaches that did it are gone or a shell;
Long history: No playoff wins in decades.

Cowboys are still the "America's Team" or whatever and them and the Steelers have huge fan bases. Far more NFL players grow up fans of either of them than the Bengals. Small market doesn't help and players know it.

Some overcome it by being aggressive, taking chances and getting a bit of luck. Buffalo has done it. 

[Destro]

(03-07-2021, 10:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am getting a bit tired of fans just saying we have no future. We have Joe frickin' Burrow...

He should make any player or fan have hope.

Future, maybe, but when is unknown. We have Burrow but one player does not take this team to a playoff win. Bengals need to change what they do in order to win. Last off season, while they did a few things, doesn't undo the f***ery that was the previous decades. Bad luck, injuries, blah, blah. The record is what it is.

You're a good to above average O-Lineman. I can go to Cincy or KC. Which do you choose? Some guys will chase money, sure. So the Bengals win a bidding war for a player. Maybe it works out. Maybe you get a guy who only wanted a paycheck and they fluff out. Has happened many times before. Takes scouting and luck. Don't think the Bengals have ever had much of either.

Burrow only got here by one route: the Bengals were the worst team in the NFL and drafted #1OA. Didn't make it a full season, just like so many of our 1st rounders before him. 

[Murdock2420]

(03-06-2021, 03:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Title says "good" players. 2 of the 3 you listed are just "ok" players.

Bates is under contract for 2021, and the franchise tag for safeties is quite reasonable, so they essentially still have him under control for 2 years. An extension wouldn't be bad.

Thing is it's looking like Jackson and Lawson are going to get overpaid in FA, so it's fine to let them go rather than reactionally overpay them as well. Some times you just need to let okay players go when they are going to get paid good/great player money. Case and point, the Mixon deal was predictably a huge mistake.

The problem is the Bengals have 5 straight losing seasons. When you're losing that long, you don't actually have a lot of good players to extend, unless you're just extending people for the sake of it rather than it being a good idea/good value.

I think both are good players with bad coaches.

WJIII and Lawson on a team with a good front office and good coaches will get more production out of them. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-08-2021, 11:02 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I think both are good players with bad coaches.

WJIII and Lawson on a team with a good front office and good coaches will get more production out of them. 

I might agree that they'd be better with good coaches, but their limitations are very clearly not something that can be coached.

I don't trust Lawson to be able to have the durability/ability to be a full time starter. The injury history is a huge red flag and the fact that once he became the starter in Week 5, he only had 2.0 sacks in 12 games isn't great. I think he loses a step from fatigue when he's being asked to play a large workload every week, and that step is the difference between a sack and a qb hit. Ideally he'd be a #3 DE who is a pass rushing specialist.

Jackson just doesn't have the hands/instincts to be anything more than a decent CB. 3 INT and 41 Pdef in 5 years, never more than 1 INT or 14 Pdef in a single season. He also misses more than his fair share of tackles (119 solo tackles, 15 missed tackles). There's also a durability concern with him as well, as he has only played 16 games in 1 of his 5 years, and has missed multiple games in 3 of his 5.

Out of those issues/concerns, the only one that could be coached up is Jackson's tackling. Health can't be coached up, instincts can't be coached. 

In 9 total seasons (5 from Jackson, 4 from Lawson) they have a combined 5 turnovers forced (INT + FF). That's a single season for a good player. If you combine Leon Hall's first 5 years with Dunlap's first 4 years, they had 34. Nearly 7 times more.