Will We See Any Cuts Before FA Opens?

[Wes Mantooth]

Curious to hear from you on if you think we will see any cuts before next Weds (FA officially opens).

Fwiw, I'm always of the position that if you know for a fact a player is not in your future plans that you should always cut them prior to FA. It does right by the player in giving them an equal chance with other FA's to get signed and to set the market. If you dump a guy weeks after FA opens he's hitting a market that's now cheaper, and many teams will have already filled needs.

Plus, what benefit is there in waiting if you know the guy isn't going to be around?

I'll be interested to see if we have any cuts coming up. If players aren't cut before Weds. then I have to believe we're still considering keeping them and it may be dependent on the market and their potential replacements.

If you see names like Atkins, Hart, Bernard, Uzomah, Hopkins, Price, and XSF all still here come Weds. I would have to think they all still have a very good chance to stick. In fact, you're probably not going to see more than one or two of them get released later during FA, if any at all. Some may not be purged until camp.

What do you guys think? Are you suprised we haven't moved on from anyone yet? Do you want us to make cuts before next week? Anyone you'll be shocked by still being here this time next week?

[*ochocincos*]

(03-11-2021, 01:19 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Curious to hear from you on if you think we will see any cuts before next Weds (FA officially opens).

Fwiw, I'm always of the position that if you know for a fact a player is not in your future plans that you should always cut them prior to FA.  It does right by the player in giving them an equal chance with other FA's to get signed and to set the market.  If you dump a guy weeks after FA opens he's hitting a market that's now cheaper, and many teams will have already filled needs.

Plus, what benefit is there in waiting if you know the guy isn't going to be around?

I'll be interested to see if we have any cuts coming up.  If players aren't cut before Weds. then I have to believe we're still considering keeping them and it may be dependent on the market and their potential replacements.

If you see names like Atkins, Hart, Bernard, Uzomah, Hopkins, Price, and XSF all still here come Weds. I would have to think they all still have a very good chance to stick.  In fact, you're probably not going to see more than one or two of them get released later during FA, if any at all.  Some may not be purged until camp.

What do you guys think?  Are you suprised we haven't moved on from any what yet?  Do you want us to make cuts before next week?  Anyone you'll be shocked by still being here this time next week?

I'm not sure we'll see many cuts before FA begins. The Bengals have Top 5 cap space right now, so they have room to sign a replacement and then let the incumbent go.

[Au165]

(03-11-2021, 01:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not sure we'll see many cuts before FA begins. The Bengals have Top 5 cap space right now, so they have room to sign a replacement and then let the incumbent go.

I think they will do things in unison, so for instance a tackle may be paired with a Bobby Hart cut. I think they are just cautious not to make a move until they are sure they got the replacement in-house.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-11-2021, 01:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think they will do things in unison, so for instance a tackle may be paired with a Bobby Hart cut. I think they are just cautious not to make a move until they are sure they got the replacement in-house.

Right.
For instance, I can see them holding onto Hart until a new OT is officially signed.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-11-2021, 01:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Right.
For instance, I can see them holding onto Hart until a new OT is officially signed.

I understand this thinking for players that are up in the air (We may replace them, we may not), but what about guys we know we're going to move on from?  Why wait?

Take Bernard for example.  If the FO has already established that they cannot afford to pay their backup running back 5 million dollars, do we really need to wait until we sign another RB at 1-2 million?

Take Geno.  He saves 9 million dollars.  I would think they've established whether or not he's worth it.  Do we really need to wait to know we can find a DT somewhere in FA?

Fwiw, I'm not saying these guys are guaranteed to be cut.  But I'm just saying if the team has already established that certain players are not in our future plans then they should move on now.  Why hurt the players chances of signing the best deal he can in FA?

And if the team hasn't established that ANY players aren't in our future plans, that to me is very concerning.  I don't think you need a replacement inked up to know it's safe to move on from some of these names.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-11-2021, 01:33 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I understand this thinking for players that are up in the air (We may replace them, we may not), but what about guys we know we're going to move on from?  Why wait?

Take Bernard for example.  If the FO has already established that they cannot afford to pay their backup running back 5 million dollars, do we really need to wait until we sign another RB at 1-2 million?

Take Geno.  He saves 9 million dollars.  I would think they've established whether or not he's worth it.  Do we really need to wait to know we can find a DT somewhere in FA?

Fwiw, I'm not saying these guys are guaranteed to be cut.  But I'm just saying if the team has already established that certain players are not in our future plans then they should move on now.  Why hurt the players chances of signing the best deal he can in FA?

And if the team hasn't established that ANY players aren't in our future plans, that to me is very concerning.  I don't think you need a replacement inked up to know it's safe to move on from some of these names.

What players do we know the Bengals are moving on from?
We may think we know but they may not think that way.

I agree though, any that are known should be cut ahead of time. But that's just my opinion.

[Wes Mantooth]

As an example: The Dolphins have a similar amount of cap space as us and they've already cut bait from Kyle Van Noy. They even ate 4 mil in dead cap to do so.

They didn't need to wait to find a replacement. They just decided this guy wasn't worth the money was due, and they moved on. It seems perfectly reasonable to make this assement, knowing you'll have ample options to choose from in FA and/or the draft.

Again, I can see waiting on players that are on the fence. My question is, are all of our guys still on the fence, and we haven't been able to identify players we know we're moving on from?

.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-11-2021, 01:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What players do we know the Bengals are moving on from?
We may think we know but they may not think that way.

I agree though, any that are known should be cut ahead of time. But that's just my opinion.

We don't know anything.  But I would think the team would know by now if they want to move from certain guys.  You don't exactly need a replacement player in tow to know whether or not you want to pay Bernard 5 mil, or Uzomah 6 mi, or Hart 7 mil.

To each their own, but the more time passes the more I don't think we're going to see the number of names come off the books as we would like.  Which I guess wouldn't be a surprise, this team hates eating money. It may be one or two that get axed, but I have a feeling we're going to get the majority of these guys back.

[Au165]

(03-11-2021, 01:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: As an example:  The Dolphins have a similar amount of cap space as us and they've already cut bait from Kyle Van Noy.  They even ate 4 mil in dead cap to do so.

They didn't need to wait to find a replacement.  They just decided this guy wasn't worth the money was due, and they moved on.  It seems perfectly reasonable to make this assement, knowing you'll have ample options to choose from in FA and/or the draft.

Again, I can see waiting on players that are on the fence.  My question is, are all of our guys still on the fence, and we haven't been able to identify players we know we're moving on from?

.

Their coach also just said don't expect them to do anything in the first couple of days. Which makes it seem like they actually aren't in a hurry to spend that money anyways. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-11-2021, 01:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We don't know anything.  But I would think the team would know by now if they want to move from certain guys.  You don't exactly need a replacement player in tow to know whether or not you want to pay Bernard 5 mil, or Uzomah 6 mi, or Hart 7 mil.

To each their own, but the more time passes the more I don't think we're going to see the number of names come off the books as we would like.  Which I guess wouldn't be a surprise, this team hates eating money.  It may be one or two that get axed, but I have a feeling we're going to get the majority of these guys back.

You know what they say, it's important to keep as many guys as possible from a 4-11-1 team. 

[Whatever]

(03-11-2021, 01:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We don't know anything.  But I would think the team would know by now if they want to move from certain guys.  You don't exactly need a replacement player in tow to know whether or not you want to pay Bernard 5 mil, or Uzomah 6 mi, or Hart 7 mil.

To each their own, but the more time passes the more I don't think we're going to see the number of names come off the books as we would like.  Which I guess wouldn't be a surprise, this team hates eating money.  It may be one or two that get axed, but I have a feeling we're going to get the majority of these guys back.

Why would you cut guys before you have to?

Hart is a big one that there's speculation that gets cut.  If we cut him before FA starts and don't sign a starting caliber RT, then every team knows we're going T in 1 or 2 in the draft and can jump you if they need one.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-11-2021, 02:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: Why would you cut guys before you have to?

Hart is a big one that there's speculation that gets cut.  If we cut him before FA starts and don't sign a starting caliber RT, then every team knows we're going T in 1 or 2 in the draft and can jump you if they need one.

Why would you cut guys before you have to?  Because you know, no matter what, they're not going to he here for the 2021 season.

If you establish a guy isn't worth anywhere near the money he's being paid then why not move on now?  It's not like FA is some mystery.  We can see a plethora of specifi options that are going to be available, and we know more that will come via cuts.  Isn't that enough to know that the player can be replaced?

All sorts of cuts are being made right now that don't have to, by teams not in cap hell yet.  So why do they do it?  My guess is they know the player is going to be replaced one way or another by someone better, someone cheaper, or both. 

My fear is we aren't committing to moving on from anyone, and will be pefectly content bringing all but one or two back.  (I sure hope I'm wrong)

[Murdock2420]

The obvious cuts from a money standpoint would be Geno, Gio and Hart.

So with the Bengals being under the cap, they don't need to make any cuts. This actually can strengthen their position in trying to rework contracts with Gio, and Geno the longer they hold onto them.

Every other team is struggling to get under the cap and cutting guys left and right. If your Geno and you know you might get cut a week or so into free agency when all the big money is already gone and you have to sign a one year vet min type deal or... you rework your current deal and stay here at a lower price but more then you will get in FA. Seems like an obvious choice. Maybe the new front office is smart enough to see this and is going to try and re-work some deals.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-11-2021, 01:19 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Curious to hear from you on if you think we will see any cuts before next Weds (FA officially opens).

Fwiw, I'm always of the position that if you know for a fact a player is not in your future plans that you should always cut them prior to FA.  It does right by the player in giving them an equal chance with other FA's to get signed and to set the market.  If you dump a guy weeks after FA opens he's hitting a market that's now cheaper, and many teams will have already filled needs.

Plus, what benefit is there in waiting if you know the guy isn't going to be around?

I'll be interested to see if we have any cuts coming up.  If players aren't cut before Weds. then I have to believe we're still considering keeping them and it may be dependent on the market and their potential replacements.

If you see names like Atkins, Hart, Bernard, Uzomah, Hopkins, Price, and XSF all still here come Weds. I would have to think they all still have a very good chance to stick.  In fact, you're probably not going to see more than one or two of them get released later during FA, if any at all.  Some may not be purged until camp.

What do you guys think?  Are you suprised we haven't moved on from anyone yet?  Do you want us to make cuts before next week?  Anyone you'll be shocked by still being here this time next week?

I think Geno is the most obvious cut that should happen before FA opens. He was non-existent last season and frees up the
most dough. I would be trying to restructure Gio's contract and if that doesn't occur, he would be cut next. With Hart we 
should keep him around until we have a replacement signed as others have said. Uzomah is another one like Hart where if 
we went after say a Hunter Henry we would have to have him signed before letting Uzomah go.

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2021, 03:37 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The obvious cuts from a money standpoint would be Geno, Gio and Hart.

PFF had Hart ranked as the #40 OT last year.  Currently he is set to be the 32nd highest paid OT, but I'll bet by the time free agency is over he is much closer to #40.

I don't have a problem with upgrading the RT position, btu it will not be as cheap or easy as many people think.

[fredtoast]

I agree with Wes that it is generally always a good idea to ut players before free agency if you know they are not in your plans.

But it is even more important if it is a player from a position you are looking to sign. For example, if we release Geno then we really need to sign a FA DT. So putting another DT on the market just expands the pool and drive down demand.

One of the biggest problems with free agency (I would say the biggest problem) is that many times players get paid more on supply then skills. For example a great CB won't get paid as much if there are a lot of other top CBs on the market. and some years average players get huge contract just because there are not many other free agent options available at his position.

[Whatever]

(03-11-2021, 03:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Why would you cut guys before you have to?  Because you know, no matter what, they're not going to he here for the 2021 season.

If you establish a guy isn't worth anywhere near the money he's being paid then why not move on now?  It's not like FA is some mystery.  We can see a plethora of specifi options that are going to be available, and we know more that will come via cuts.  Isn't that enough to know that the player can be replaced?

All sorts of cuts are being made right now that don't have to, by teams not in cap hell yet.  So why do they do it?  My guess is they know the player is going to be replaced one way or another by someone better, someone cheaper, or both. 

My fear is we aren't committing to moving on from anyone, and will be pefectly content bringing all but one or two back.  (I sure hope I'm wrong)

Who was on your list of names that we know won't be here no matter what?  I mean, Finney fell into that category, but they cut him. 

Most of those guys would be penciled in as starters if TC began tomorrow.  Certainly, we should be trying to upgrade over them, but cutting them before we have their replacements causes the team to lose a lot of flexibility. 

 

[Shake n Blake]

As much as I loved Geno, any other team has already cut him by now. He produced nothing and has a big price tag with little in the way of dead cap if we cut him. It's a no-brainer. Not sure why we haven't done it yet...outside of "it's the Bengals".

Gio is loved by everyone on this team, but that only goes so far. Price tag doesn't match the usage or production. Again, a no-brainer.

We should be cutting these guys if for nothing else than (a) they're not in our plans and (b) more cap space = more flexibility in free agency, which should be a priority for a 4-11-1 team with many holes.

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2021, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As much as I loved Geno, any other team has already cut him by now. He produced nothing and has a big price tag with little in the way of dead cap if we cut him. It's a no-brainer. Not sure why we haven't done it yet...outside of "it's the Bengals".

You can't say this for sure.

Geno was a Pro Bowl player in 2019 before being injured for all of 2020.  There are lots of teams who will give a star player a chance to rebound from an injury.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-11-2021, 03:37 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The obvious cuts from a money standpoint would be Geno, Gio and Hart.

So with the Bengals being under the cap, they don't need to make any cuts. This actually can strengthen their position in trying to rework contracts with Gio, and Geno the longer they hold onto them.

Every other team is struggling to get under the cap and cutting guys left and right. If your Geno and you know you might get cut a week or so into free agency when all the big money is already gone and you have to sign a one year vet min type deal or... you rework your current deal and stay here at a lower price but more then you will get in FA. Seems like an obvious choice. Maybe the new front office is smart enough to see this and is going to try and re-work some deals.

To each their own, but I just can't get on board with this.

1.) Have the Bengals ever restructured someone's deal?  (I'm sure they have but none are coming to mind).  Remember this is an organization that fully believes "you honor the contract you signed".  Could this be the first time they used their leverage and forced guys to take pay cuts?  Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

2.) I'm really not sure you want some these guys back even at lesser amounts.  Either it's time to move on and bring in someone else or it's not. 

I mean, are we building something here, or are we just slapping a new coat of paint on?  What answers do Geno Atkins, Bobby Hart, and Gio Bernard provide for this beyond 2021, if they even provided any for this year?  What about 2022, 2023, 2024?

Shouldn't we be getting younger in spots if we can?  Shouldn't we be looking for talent we can build off of for years to come?  Shouldn't we get guys experience in this system for when we can hopefully start seriously competing in years 3, 4, and 5 of Burrow's rookie deal?

None of these guys do much for me.  They're not that great, and they're not putting this team over the hump in 2021 to win a ring, so what good are they?  You're telling me a team that won 6 games over 2 years is going to be screwed trying to replace guys like these?

Why keep bringing back the same guys?