12-23-2021, 02:01 PM
(12-22-2021, 03:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I agree, he was good enough overall with his own play in spurts to win important games and he will eventually end up in the hall, i'm just saying he's never been able to carry a team that didn't have a top defense and a running game that was just plain good or needed to play good in a playoff game.
JS said "He ain't carrying the team anymore". I'm saying he never did carry them when the defense and running game weren't up to snuff. Just so you don't think i'm talking out my ass, here are the things i'm talking about. This is all from 2005 on.
Looking at their SB years first:
2005 the defense was 3rd in PA and 4th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 5th in yards.
In the final 8 games (incl SB) they went 8-0
Defense gave up an average of 11.8 per game
Rush offense averaged 158.3 per game
Ben was 9/5 td/int, in 8 games.
2008 the defense was 1st in PA and 1st in YA. The rush offense was ranked 23rd in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they went 9-1
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 109 per game (meh)
Ben was 10/5 td/int in 10 games.
2010 the defense was 1st in PA and 2nd in YA. The rush offense was ranked 11th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl SB) they were 8-2 (lost SB to GB)
Defense gave up an average of 14.4 per game
Rush offense averaged 126.9 per game
Ben was 11/5 td/int in 10 games
In the 2016 season where they lost the AFCCG:
2016 the defense was 10th in PA and 12th in YA. The rush offense was ranked 14th in yards.
In the final 10 games (incl AFCC) they were 9-1 (lost to NE)
Defense gave up an average of 18.5 per game
Rush offense averaged 134.8 per game
Ben was 12/10 td/int in 10 games
In years where they fell short of the AFCCG:
2010 Ben's rating was 77.4 with 2/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 126 yards and the defense gave up 31 points in the playoff loss.
2011 Ben's rating was 75.9 with 1/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 156 yards and the defense gave up 29 points in the playoff loss.
2014 Ben's rating was 79.3 with 1/2 td/int, the offense rushed for 68 yards and the defense gave up 30 points in the playoff loss.
2015 Ben's rating was 94.3 with 0/0 td/int, the offense rushed for 85 yards and the defense gave up 23 points in the playoff loss.
2017 Ben's rating was 110.5 with 5/1 td/int, the offense rushed for 83 yards and the defense gave up 45 points in the playoff loss.
2020 Ben's rating was 85.5 with 4/4 td/int, the offense rushed for 52 yards and the defense gave up 48 points in the playoff loss.
That's a lot of "not carrying" if you ask me, besides the SB GW drive against Arizona and him doing everything he could against Jax in '17.
For his career, his playoff stats look like this; 63% comp, 7.7 ypa, 34td/28int, 86.4 rating.
P.S. I added the
I’m not exactly sure what this proves. I think you’ll find that most SB winning QBs not named Brady had a strong team around them in the years they won, and did less well when their team was weaker. Heck, even Brady had strong support for most of his SB wins. When it comes to carrying a team to a championship, most historical examples are more situational than seasonal, like Ben’s 2005 performance to get them to the SB and his game-ending drive in 2008 drive to win it. Instances where a QB carried a crappy team through an entire championship season, on the other hand, are exceedingly rare outliers.
As for the career playoff stats, just about every player sees a downturn in those numbers compared to their regular season stats: even Brady’s playoff rating is 7 points lower than his career rating (and only four points higher than Ben’s, which is roughly the same as their overall difference). It makes sense, since you don’t get to pad those numbers with bad teams the way you do in the season. I mean, Brady’s career playoff completion percentage is actually a few tenths of a percentage point LOWER than Ben’s.
Overall, I think most people in this thread are trying to hold Ben to a standard that only the elite of the elite ever met, and I’ve never argued that he belongs in that tier. In the bottom half of current HoF members, though? As you more or less have already said in your opening paragraph here ... Absolutely.
