Joe B. becoming national NFL icon??

[Shake n Blake]

(04-09-2022, 09:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Bird was a better shooter and rebounder (I neglected to mention rebounding, and I agree that Bird has Bron on rebounding) but that's it. I just have to disagree on passing. I'm not sure it is even arguable, to be honest. This is no disrespect to Bird, what makes Lebron the player that he is, is his passing ability and basketball IQ. Usage rates are higher today than they were in Bird's time so the raw numbers favor Lebron, but on a per-pass basis, they also favor Lebron. They favor him significantly. 

From a career standpoint, Lebron has an assist percentage of 36.4%. This means that 36.4% of his teammates buckets came via an assist from him. Larry Bird's assist percentage is 24.7%. We are talking about a 47% gap between Lebron and Bird's assist percentage. Larry Bird's BEST season in assist % (28.9%) would almost be Lebron's worst season. The only season where Lebron had less than a 28.9% was his rookie season. His passes are converted to buckets at a significantly higher ratio because he is a better passer. This was true even early in his career before offenses really started taking off, but that isn't even really an argument that needs addressed. Offenses in Bird's era were scoring at a pace that is very similar to today's game. They were high flying offenses with outputs similar to the NBA in 2018. Bird never ranked higher than 22nd in assist % throughout his career whereas Lebron has consistently been in the top ten with several top five appearances, leading the league once. 

Saying that Bird was only rivaled by Magic is pretty ludicrous. Magic beats Lebron's assist percentage by nearly 13%, and beats Bird's by 66%. Magic is one of the greatest passers of all time. Bird was never even the best passer for a single season. The only player who was consistently beating Magic Johnson in assist percentage during his career was John Stockton - Magic finished top three seven times, and finished #2 five times. Every time he lost to John Stockton. Regarding clutchness, you're right. It is very hard to find any reliable sources. I can only find raw numbers, which isn't helpful. Bird had four game winning shots and Lebron has seven, but I can't find any percentages. I also don't like isolating "clutch" to just buzzerbeaters. I would like fourth quarter metrics when the team has entered the fourth quarter losing, but I don't know where I could find those, if I even could. 

And just to get ahead of it, I have watched quite a bit of Bird. This is a discussion I have had a few times. I'm not just pulling up a spreadsheet here. I just find the numbers talk to be more direct and to the point. It is fact based. The eye test doesn't show me Bird being a better passer, or better overall player than Lebron. 

1. Again...the NBA has been much more liberal with what constitutes an assist in the modern era. You can pass to a guy, have him make moves to beat a defender, and the assist is still rewarded. This wasn't the case in previous eras.

2. It's not an apples to apples comparison. The Celtics had point guards, while LeBron has almost always ran the LeBron system and brought the ball up. Hence more assists. That said, your folly is blindly associating passing skill with assist totals.

My eyes see better court vision and a far more impressive highlight reel with Bird. Both in passing and general court vision. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine. Imo, Bird likely would've been a point forward in this era, and his assists would've gone way up as a result.

3. I provided a good link from ESPN which gave 10 years worth of data. Bron sucks on clutch shots. If you can't even admit that Bird is more clutch than Bron, that tells me all I need to know.

I also strongly disagree with you on what constitutes a clutch shot. You want to include entire 4th quarters? Or something close? Nothing is more clutch than the game being on the line with 5 seconds left. Nothing. So that's what I look at, and most people who aren't trying to defend their guy.

Be honest, are you a Cavs or LeBron fan?