Good article on MMQB this morning ....

[Shake n Blake]

(05-06-2017, 02:21 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Edited due to douchey phrasing....

Your rebuttal and points are thin here and a bit reaching.

To your points...

1: Every player around AD has to be top tier elite for him to succeed in the playoffs? I disagree. He seems to be fine during the regular season with those players.

Also, not every team with post season success has ultra elite, healthy guys at every spot at the end of the year. AD has to have that? This path of logic seems like an excuse more than a factor or reason. You can't have it both ways.

The poo-pooing of the team around AD is unreasonable and, I think, quite slanted for the purpose of shifting blame. The Colts loss can't be placed on Andy Dalton, IMO, because the team was decimated and not representative of what the Bengals were that season. Other than that, the talent around AD in the playoffs has been excellent. Not every unit is going to be top shelf, at it's best all the time. Especially at the end of the year. If AD needs that to succeed, then he really isn't going to be the answer to anything meaningful.

2. AD has played 6 seasons. There are 2 where the line wasn't good. Even with that line in 2012, they made the playoffs. Also, not all sacks are on the O-line. This information doesn't tell the whole story and is incomplete. Again, slanted and misdirecting to serve your purpose. There is more data needed here to actually draw a conclusion on 2012's O-line performance.

3. Carson had a great defense ONCE in his entire time in Cincy. When he did, the team was playing terribly towards the end of that season and got smoked by a hot Jets team. You put down AD's WRs above and then bring this game up where Carson had an awful cast: Chad, Coles, Cosby, Simpson were the top 4 WRs on that team. That's much worse than any group AD has had. It's unreasonable to point to AD's cast, bring up Carson's D ONE season, then circle that back without taking Carson's cast into consideration.

4. Special Teams as a whole is much much more than a kicker. The Bengals ST units since AD got here in 2011 are much better than they were in the mid 2000s - which was my point. Bringing up one guy, a kicker, to try and deconstruct that is, again, misdirecting for the sake of manufacturing a rebuttal. The ST units for the Bengals are excllent. Huber is outstanding. The return game is better. Everything is better BUT the kicker. I blame the kicker for a large portion of lasts season's woes, NOT AD. I think AD played well enough.

5. AD's performance in the SD playoff game is indefensible. You trying to point to a late fumble by Bernard as a reason for the loss is just not right or a fair perspective. The Bengals D played great in that game up until ADs back.... to back... to BACK turn overs on 3 consecutive possessions - IN BENGALS TERRITORY.

Again, super bias - as if you're looking for excuses for AD - to blame the D for giving up points in that game compared to the Stealers game, where McCarron kept them in it by not stinking (in relation to AD in the SD playoff game... basically the opposite).

The telling play that game, to me, was when AD dove on the ground and coughed it up untouched. He was filling his pants the whole 2nd half. He was THAT bad. The Bengals were in position to take that game and AD gave it away in the 3rd quarter. Period. Here, go back and read the play by play of it and try not to puke...

Go ahead and scroll down to after the first half. Bengals up 7-10.
1st possession 2nd half: PUNT
2nd: FUMBLE
3rd: Awful INT
4th: Awful INT
Each one of those giveaways in Bengals territory led to SD points and losing the lead.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=340105004

I appreciate AD being the QB of the Bengals very much, but I refuse to baby him baby him or be short sighted over how he has played in the playoffs.

^ The above being said, anyone calling AD a bum, complaining about his arm strength, etc. etc. or saying that he CAN'T do it, are on the opposite side of irrational. Andy Dalton is a really good QB. He is a step away from being a GREAT QB and that step is multiple post season wins. He CAN do it. He just hasn't. All the tools are there.

Lastly,

6. The notion that the entire team has been bad under Marvin in the playoffs isn't correct. The defenses have had good games and the Bengals have had leads. In recent history, AD has not been able to overcome his own mistakes or make the players around him better in the playoffs. QB is the most influential, singularly important position in all of team sports for THAT reason. He isn't an equal participant or and equal part of the equation. He is THE most important by multitudes. He makes the most money because he makes the team go, he gets the glory and the blame if they fail. Blaming every single thing around him, BUT HIM, or treating the players as equal parts are just apologistic notions from the hearts of fans. He has the most influence and should get the most blame. And if he had played lights out and they had lost, NOBODY would be on his case. But that isn't reality.

The fact that Brady is 3-3 WITH terrible performances doesn't mean that AD gets off the hook or that TB's team bailed him out (sometimes the guys around him have made great plays, yes... see superbowl vs Seahawks). It could also mean that in crunch time, Brady picked his game up. JUST LIKE MCCARRON DID. In the moments needed, great QBs come through. AD hasn't done that... yet. So to say he's great or be sensitive towards people who beat on him a little is fanboyish.

AD can be polarizing to fans. Some are hyper hyper sensitive to any criticism of AD and become apologists and others are hyper sensitive to heaps of praise and grandeur, becoming haters. I didn't see the article as unfairly bashing him at all. Fact is, AD's stunk in the playoffs, despite having one of the most talented rosters in the NFL around him, but that isn't the nail in the coffin to his career. Lots left to play.

I appreciate you making it more respectful. I might disagree, get a little heated occasionally or throw a little sarcasm in my posts, but I always try to maintain a level of respect with everyone here. Don't let it get personal. Sometimes we seem to forget that we're all huge Bengals fans...we just disagree on some details of the team. With that said...

1. You're twisting what I said here. You said Dalton's weapons were "elite", I responded by saying they weren't, and your response back was to say "so he needs a super elite cast to win a playoff game?". I was simply trying to show that Dalton's cast hasn't been nearly as epic as it's reputation over the last 6 years. If you sit and think about it, it's mostly been AJ Green + revolving door at #2 WR + Gresh/injured Eifert + terrible run game.

No I don't think Dalton needs an elite cast to win a playoff game, although that doesn't hurt (ask Matt Ryan). He just needs a better coach.


2. The reason why I highlighted the 2012 season and how the coaching staff called for Andy to make more "unscripted plays" is this: unscripted plays take time. That was the only season where Dalton wasn't among the league leaders in time-to-throw, and it led to a whopping 46 sacks. To me, that's possible evidence that the pass blocking has been made to look better by those quick release times. I think Andy is regarded as being a QB that helps his line avoid sacks, more than creating them. We saw the difference between he and McCarron first hand in 2015.


3. You were talking about defense there, but now switch it to weapons. That's fine. The weapons that year weren't good, but for you to say they were worse than any of Dalton's years is false IMO. Carson had a Pro Bowl WR (Chad), a decent run game and that's about it. Is that really worse than Dalton's 2011 or 2012 seasons? When he had AJ Green and crap? What about 2014...when he had no healthy receivers for the playoff game (or half the season)? I don't hate Carson, I just like pointing out that he was equally shitty in the playoffs. Just more evidence that Marv is the problem. Weapons or not, Carson wasn't that bad in regular season at all.


4. ST is more than the kicker? You don't say... Look, I just didn't feel like listing off all the punters and returners they had, but a lot of them were very good. Kyle Larson had a solid 5 year run. Tab Perry, Bernard Scott, Glenn Holt and others all had very successful stints as returners. Plus Darrin Simmons was the coach back then as well. I don't know why you think our ST was so bad during Palmer's tenure. Did we give up a ton of return TD's? I don't remember that, but maybe we did? Outside of that I know the ST play was fine.


5.  I see you also changed that bit about Gio fumbling "late" in the game. That key fumble came at the end of the first half, when we were looking to build on a lead and go in with momentum. Not bashing Gio...he's just a symptom of the real problem. AJ McCarron was just as awful and I'm not sure why you think he was better (couldn't be bias, because I'm the one who is biased apparently). He led the Bengals to a whopping 56 total yards and 0 points in the first half. During one 12-play stretch in the second quarter, they collected 10 yards, punted three times and threw an interception. How is that "keeping the defense in it by not stinking"?? Lets face it, the defense fell apart during one bad performance and they kept it together during the other. Here's a novel concept: Maybe we should blame the defense for the performance of the defense? Or maybe the head coach who is responsible for everything sucking. 

I'm not the only one who thinks McC played like crap: 

Quote:It's worth noting that McCarron is a former fifth-round pick that has thrown all of 119 NFL passes since being drafted in 2014. He acquitted himself fairly well in three starts at the end of the 2015 season when Andy Dalton went down with a broken thumb on his throwing hand, but McCarron struggled badly during the Bengals' first-round playoff loss to the Steelers. 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bengals-reportedly-want-at-least-a-first-round-pick-for-backup-aj-mccarron/

McCarron had 2 turnovers...one less than Dalton and passed for 212 yards with a 68.3 rating...yet you think he kept the defense in it. SMH.

6. You really believe that? In the 7 playoff games we've allowed:

31 points
24 points
31 points
19 points
27 points
26 points
18 points

We've allowed a 102.7 passer rating to opposing QBs. We've allowed over 150 rushing yards on average. We've forced only 9 sacks and 2 INTs in 7 playoff games, with 4 of those sacks and half those INTs coming in the last Steelers game (helping Mac). That's just covering the defense. The offense has allowed 22 sacks (a 50 sack pace for a full season) and they've struggled getting the run game going outside of Benson's explosion vs the Jets (which helped Carson). 

This isn't about me being a homer (or you being a hater), it's about narratives not matching reality. People pinning all the losses on Andy are missing the point. Everyone has been awful - including the other 3 QBs - and that traces back to the head ball coach. The facts show that Dalton is far from alone.