08-20-2015, 10:22 AM
Okay, well there are some good points on both sides here, but let's not let Pong's insanity ruin my side of the debate here. Disregard his trolling for a minute and let me make a few points to the "not a great draft" side.
1. Name 5 RGs better than Zeitler for those that say he isn't top 5.
2. Name 10 SS better than Iloka for those that are unsure he's top 10.
3. I don't care if Marvin Jones had 700 yards and 10 TDs in one single game, he still did it in 2013 and we aren't putting up qualifiers for his peers, so can we leave it at the fact that he had a GREAT 2013 for a #2 WR on a team that was playing musical receivers half the season?? To pretend that he didn't look good outside of his big game is crazy, he consistently did exactly what Sanu struggled with which was getting separation on the outside. Andy targeted A.J. like 500 times that year, MLJ's statline would have been even more impressive had Andy/Gruden stopped locking in on A.J. as if he was the only guy that existed at times. MLJ got plenty of separation to get the targets, so it's not like Andy ignored him for the same reason as he didn't look Sanu's way when he was the #2.
4. I don't think we can call Thompson a terrible pick, but he wasn't a great one either. He still was able to come in and fill in for Geno just fine in 2013, though he wasn't going beast mode or anything.
5. I agree with Shake about not getting great value out of Dre Kirk. The best value is when you have guys tearing it up on their rookie contract, I completely agree with that. As it was said in that post, we're probably only getting 1 year out of his rookie deal where he's actually a big contributor, which sucks in a way. BUT, if he turns into a legit #1/2 CB, that's going to be considered a huge draft hit whether we got the most value out of his rookie deal or not. With the amount of busts in each draft, turning into a starting quality CB even after 3 years is still very, very good. Also, Shake (or maybe someone else) made a comment about Dre being the 4th/Dime CB, but when he was showing the flashes that our fanbase is now excited about, he was starting on the outside as a #1/2 CB. Let's not pretend he was covering scrubs every time he saw the field.
6. I also want to point out another thing Shake said that rubbed me the wrong way was mentioning that either MLJ or Sanu probably won't be on the team after next year, as if that would somehow make the 2012 draft worse? If that's not what you were implying, then my bad, but I don't think it should count against the team's drafting ability if one of the guys is likely going to be getting a contract from a different team because we can't afford to keep them all. If anything, IMO, that would make the draft seem even better in a way, because it's saying one of the players is good enough to get offered a bigger deal from a random team than we'd be willing to pay.
7. Let's look at a couple different kinds of "good drafts".
2010 Seattle Seahawks (get ready for this one)
Russell Okung
Earl Thomas
Golden Tate
Walter Thurmond
E.J. Wilson
Kam Chancellor
Anthony McCoy
Dexter Davis
Jameson Konz
Sure, they had a couple extra draft picks (2 first rounders, 2 fourths), but this draft was insane. This is probably the best example I can think of that's just one of your best drafts of the entire 2000's. Sure, there are some guys on there that haven't done anything/much, and there are some guys that had/have their issues (Thurmond), but dang that's a damn impressive draft.
My point is, this isn't your usual draft. This is out of the ordinary and definitely leaps and bounds above what most teams do each season. The Bengals 2012 draft isn't as good as this, but it's not extremely far behind and it gets even closer depending on what MLJ and Dre do this season.
Getting 2 top 10 talents in a single draft isn't very common, and the Bengals getting Zeitler + Iloka makes the 2012 draft great with that alone. Throw in Sanu being a good slot guy, MLJ being a legitimate #2 receiver, and Kirkpatrick (hopefully) being a legitimate starting CB and you're looking at a great draft.
If you guys think it wasn't so impressive, show me some typical drafts that are considered just "okay" that are comparable to ours in 2012. Show me some drafts in recent years where a team got a couple top 10 guys at their positions along with 3+ other contributors as well. It doesn't happen as often as a lot of you want to believe. Right now, at this very time, no, this isn't the greatest draft of all time or anything, but it's certainly better than a lot of you will give it credit for.
1. Name 5 RGs better than Zeitler for those that say he isn't top 5.
2. Name 10 SS better than Iloka for those that are unsure he's top 10.
3. I don't care if Marvin Jones had 700 yards and 10 TDs in one single game, he still did it in 2013 and we aren't putting up qualifiers for his peers, so can we leave it at the fact that he had a GREAT 2013 for a #2 WR on a team that was playing musical receivers half the season?? To pretend that he didn't look good outside of his big game is crazy, he consistently did exactly what Sanu struggled with which was getting separation on the outside. Andy targeted A.J. like 500 times that year, MLJ's statline would have been even more impressive had Andy/Gruden stopped locking in on A.J. as if he was the only guy that existed at times. MLJ got plenty of separation to get the targets, so it's not like Andy ignored him for the same reason as he didn't look Sanu's way when he was the #2.
4. I don't think we can call Thompson a terrible pick, but he wasn't a great one either. He still was able to come in and fill in for Geno just fine in 2013, though he wasn't going beast mode or anything.
5. I agree with Shake about not getting great value out of Dre Kirk. The best value is when you have guys tearing it up on their rookie contract, I completely agree with that. As it was said in that post, we're probably only getting 1 year out of his rookie deal where he's actually a big contributor, which sucks in a way. BUT, if he turns into a legit #1/2 CB, that's going to be considered a huge draft hit whether we got the most value out of his rookie deal or not. With the amount of busts in each draft, turning into a starting quality CB even after 3 years is still very, very good. Also, Shake (or maybe someone else) made a comment about Dre being the 4th/Dime CB, but when he was showing the flashes that our fanbase is now excited about, he was starting on the outside as a #1/2 CB. Let's not pretend he was covering scrubs every time he saw the field.
6. I also want to point out another thing Shake said that rubbed me the wrong way was mentioning that either MLJ or Sanu probably won't be on the team after next year, as if that would somehow make the 2012 draft worse? If that's not what you were implying, then my bad, but I don't think it should count against the team's drafting ability if one of the guys is likely going to be getting a contract from a different team because we can't afford to keep them all. If anything, IMO, that would make the draft seem even better in a way, because it's saying one of the players is good enough to get offered a bigger deal from a random team than we'd be willing to pay.
7. Let's look at a couple different kinds of "good drafts".
2010 Seattle Seahawks (get ready for this one)
Russell Okung
Earl Thomas
Golden Tate
Walter Thurmond
E.J. Wilson
Kam Chancellor
Anthony McCoy
Dexter Davis
Jameson Konz
Sure, they had a couple extra draft picks (2 first rounders, 2 fourths), but this draft was insane. This is probably the best example I can think of that's just one of your best drafts of the entire 2000's. Sure, there are some guys on there that haven't done anything/much, and there are some guys that had/have their issues (Thurmond), but dang that's a damn impressive draft.
My point is, this isn't your usual draft. This is out of the ordinary and definitely leaps and bounds above what most teams do each season. The Bengals 2012 draft isn't as good as this, but it's not extremely far behind and it gets even closer depending on what MLJ and Dre do this season.
Getting 2 top 10 talents in a single draft isn't very common, and the Bengals getting Zeitler + Iloka makes the 2012 draft great with that alone. Throw in Sanu being a good slot guy, MLJ being a legitimate #2 receiver, and Kirkpatrick (hopefully) being a legitimate starting CB and you're looking at a great draft.
If you guys think it wasn't so impressive, show me some typical drafts that are considered just "okay" that are comparable to ours in 2012. Show me some drafts in recent years where a team got a couple top 10 guys at their positions along with 3+ other contributors as well. It doesn't happen as often as a lot of you want to believe. Right now, at this very time, no, this isn't the greatest draft of all time or anything, but it's certainly better than a lot of you will give it credit for.
