Curious for your take - Cincy Sports Fan Commiseration

[OrangeLacroix]

This is my first post on here, so I will start by piggybacking off another thread.

The "What is your breaking point' Thread got me thinking.

I want to understand from other common, and reasonable Bengals/Reds fans, What do you honestly think is the impediment to these franchises?

As I belabored earlier, Reds 22 Years, Bengals 26: 0 playoff advances, 13 winning seasons in the last 48 new seasons.

This sort of dual pattern for 2 sports teams is honestly beyond unlucky. It would be the semi-equivalent of playing Roulette and hitting black on a absurd amount of consecutive spins.

Pro teams luck in playoff success all the time - the way the leagues are set up, you should never go 20+ years without success in the postseason.


I have my theory - Cincinnati is a nice medium sized town, MIdwest values, kind, stuck in the past, antiquated, loyal to a fault, and not very hard to impress. I think that permeates the sports culture here, unfortunately.

The Owners/GMs of our teams do things so differently than everyone else, I think we need an outsider to own the teams. Having Cincy roots with Brown, Lindner, Marge and now Castellini - These folks are deluded when it comes to running a cut-throat, fierce, and competitive franchise.

I do not know. I am curious to hear others thoughts. Please, do not reply if you think the leagues or umps/reffs are biased to the Bengals or Reds - Those crazy conspiracies can be saved for your next town hall w/ Rand Paul.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-08-2017, 11:30 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This is my first post on here, so I will start by piggybacking off another thread.

The "What is your breaking point' Thread got me thinking.

I want to understand from other common, and reasonable Bengals/Reds fans,  What do you honestly think is the impediment to these franchises?

As I belabored earlier, Reds 22 Years, Bengals 26:  0 playoff advances, 13 winning seasons in the last 48 new seasons.

This sort of dual pattern for 2 sports teams is honestly beyond unlucky.  It would be the semi-equivalent of playing Roulette and hitting black on a absurd amount of consecutive spins.

Pro teams luck in playoff success all the time -  the way the leagues are set up, you should never go 20+ years without success in the postseason.  


I have my theory - Cincinnati is a nice medium sized town, MIdwest values, kind, stuck in the past, antiquated, loyal to a fault, and not very hard to impress.   I think that permeates the sports culture here, unfortunately.  

The Owners/GMs of our teams do things so differently than everyone else, I think we need an outsider to own the teams.  Having Cincy roots with Brown, Lindner, Marge and now Castellini - These folks are deluded when it comes to running a cut-throat, fierce, and competitive franchise.

I do not know.  I am curious to hear others thoughts.   Please, do not reply if you think the leagues or umps/reffs are biased to the Bengals or Reds - Those crazy conspiracies can be saved for your next town hall w/ Rand Paul.

The Bengals are inept, and have no excuse with revenue sharing and salary caps.  Son of Paul is just the worst.

Marge won a World Series, and MLB has none of those luxuries afforded the Bengals.  They made some wrong calls with their pitching staff, and now they don't have the coin to fix that quickly.  They have to develop their own.  They are reaping what they sowed for those mistakes, and they just don't have the capital to sign big money fixes like the Yanks and Sox, etc do.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-08-2017, 11:39 AM)Wyche Wrote: The Bengals are inept, and have no excuse with revenue sharing and salary caps.  Son of Paul is just the worst.

Marge won a World Series, and MLB has none of those luxuries afforded the Bengals.  They made some wrong calls with their pitching staff, and now they don't have the coin to fix that quickly.  They have to develop their own.  They are reaping what they sowed for those mistakes, and they just don't have the capital to sign big money fixes like the Yanks and Sox, etc do.

Yep.

NFL Teams are afforded the same financial resources with revenue sharing. A salary cap that baseball doesn't have. Bad teams get the better draft picks and easier schedule.

Yet the Bengals have a small scouting department while some other teams have 3 times the scouts. The Bengals also have no GM that isn't the owner.

I mean think about it - Scouting is probably the most important thing to improve a team. If you aren't going to sign guys to mega-contracts, you better be great at finding underpriced guys that fit your system that could break out.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-08-2017, 12:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep.

NFL Teams are afforded the same financial resources with revenue sharing. A salary cap that baseball doesn't have. Bad teams get the better draft picks and easier schedule.

Yet the Bengals have a small scouting department while some other teams have 3 times the scouts. The Bengals also have no GM that isn't the owner.

I mean think about it - Scouting is probably the most important thing to improve a team. If you aren't going to sign guys to mega-contracts, you better be great at finding underpriced guys that fit your system that could break out.

Exactly PISTONS.  The whole scouting fiasco in Cincy, and no competent GM is definitely the biggest detriment to the Bengals, IMO.  Better scouting, and more of it, frees up the coaching staff to do more important actual coaching jobs....which may lead to making even Marv and his staff look like geniuses.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-08-2017, 12:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly PISTONS.  The whole scouting fiasco in Cincy, and no competent GM is definitely the biggest detriment to the Bengals, IMO.  Better scouting, and more of it, frees up the coaching staff to do more important actual coaching jobs....which may lead to making even Marv and his staff look like geniuses.

Yep. Instead of working on plays and watching film in the offseason...the coaches are scouting. And this isn't to say that other teams coaches don't scout...as they do. It's just that they aren't the primary scouts.

And then we hear about how we get burned signing free agents to all but small deals. Well scouting is important for signing free agents too.

It's also important for gameplanning.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-08-2017, 12:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. Instead of working on plays and watching film in the offseason...the coaches are scouting. And this isn't to say that other teams coaches don't scout...as they do. It's just that they aren't the primary scouts.

And then we hear about how we get burned signing free agents to all but small deals. Well scouting is important for signing free agents too.

It's also important for gameplanning.

Absolutely correct in all facets.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-08-2017, 11:30 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This is my first post on here, so I will start by piggybacking off another thread.

The "What is your breaking point' Thread got me thinking.

I want to understand from other common, and reasonable Bengals/Reds fans,  What do you honestly think is the impediment to these franchises?

As I belabored earlier, Reds 22 Years, Bengals 26:  0 playoff advances, 13 winning seasons in the last 48 new seasons.

This sort of dual pattern for 2 sports teams is honestly beyond unlucky.  It would be the semi-equivalent of playing Roulette and hitting black on a absurd amount of consecutive spins.

Pro teams luck in playoff success all the time -  the way the leagues are set up, you should never go 20+ years without success in the postseason.  


I have my theory - Cincinnati is a nice medium sized town, MIdwest values, kind, stuck in the past, antiquated, loyal to a fault, and not very hard to impress.   I think that permeates the sports culture here, unfortunately.  

The Owners/GMs of our teams do things so differently than everyone else, I think we need an outsider to own the teams.  Having Cincy roots with Brown, Lindner, Marge and now Castellini - These folks are deluded when it comes to running a cut-throat, fierce, and competitive franchise.

I do not know.  I am curious to hear others thoughts.   Please, do not reply if you think the leagues or umps/reffs are biased to the Bengals or Reds - Those crazy conspiracies can be saved for your next town hall w/ Rand Paul.

The Bengals FO has a philosophy to succeed. They have tried to live or die by that philosophy. It's actually worked...to a certain extent. It has the team to a consistently good team with the rare off year. But it's never taken them where we as fans want to see since the turn of the millenium, which is at least the AFC championship game.

There are things this team does or doesn't do that other teams are different about:
- Other teams will constantly restructure deals with players to find ways to open up cap space to further improve the team. The Bengals typically do not restructure deals. They pride themselves on getting a "fair" deal done at the time of the signing.
- Other teams seem to have no problem cutting underperforming players, even if they have to take on a decent amount of dead money. The Bengals typically do not do this. They typically have their signed players play out the entire length of their contracts, thus honoring their contracts. It's noble, but it also seems to be a bit too loyal.
- The Bengals typically don't rush to play their youth, even the first and second rounders, who many of the fans expect should start as rookies. While the fans may be blind to the fact that these young players actually could be worse than their veteran peers, the fans would like to hope that they are actually better because the fans see definite room for improvement in some of the veteran starters. Fred started a thread that the Bengals actually start an average amount of youth, but the fans want to see more start, especially after seeing the Falcons get to the Super Bowl with youth on defense.
- A good amount of teams will make a splash here and there in FA, bringing in what many consider great FA acquisitions. The Bengals typically wait for the initial overspending then look for bargain purchases to get what they hope is good value. This paid off very well for them in the case of Brandon LaFell last year for just $2 million. The activity for the Bengals at the start of FA is typically that of retaining their own FAs. However, the Bengals typically have an upper limit they are willing to spend on a particular player/position and will let very good players go elsewhere if that player at a particular position is offered more than the Bengals are willing to pay (likely the case for Zeitler this year).

[THE PISTONS]

(03-08-2017, 01:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The Bengals FO has a philosophy to succeed. They have tried to live or die by that philosophy. It's actually worked...to a certain extent. It has the team to a consistently good team with the rare off year. But it's never taken them where we as fans want to see since the turn of the millenium, which is at least the AFC championship game.

There are things this team does or doesn't do that other teams are different about:
- Other teams will constantly restructure deals with players to find ways to open up cap space to further improve the team. The Bengals typically do not restructure deals. They pride themselves on getting a "fair" deal done at the time of the signing.
- Other teams seem to have no problem cutting underperforming players, even if they have to take on a decent amount of dead money. The Bengals typically do not do this. They typically have their signed players play out the entire length of their contracts, thus honoring their contracts. It's noble, but it also seems to be a bit too loyal.
- The Bengals typically don't rush to play their youth, even the first and second rounders, who many of the fans expect should start as rookies. While the fans may be blind to the fact that these young players actually could be worse than their veteran peers, the fans would like to hope that they are actually better because the fans see definite room for improvement in some of the veteran starters. Fred started a thread that the Bengals actually start an average amount of youth, but the fans want to see more start, especially after seeing the Falcons get to the Super Bowl with youth on defense.
- A good amount of teams will make a splash here and there in FA, bringing in what many consider great FA acquisitions. The Bengals typically wait for the initial overspending then look for bargain purchases to get what they hope is good value. This paid off very well for them in the case of Brandon LaFell last year for just $2 million. The activity for the Bengals at the start of FA is typically that of retaining their own FAs. However, the Bengals typically have an upper limit they are willing to spend on a particular player/position and will let very good players go elsewhere if that player at a particular position is offered more than the Bengals are willing to pay (likely the case for Zeitler this year).

The Bengals had 2 monster drafts with Green/Dalton and Atkins/Dunlap that makes the strategy appear to be working. That's 4 Pro Bowl players in 2 years.

Take those 2 drafts out of the mix...and their strategy isn't looking very good.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-08-2017, 12:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I mean think about it - Scouting is probably the most important thing to improve a team. If you aren't going to sign guys to mega-contracts, you better be great at finding underpriced guys that fit your system that could break out.

This is always what killed me about the "model model" BS. If you're going to completely ignore free agency and focus solely on the draft, then why not have an NFL sized scouting department? The truth is that cheapness is the motivation for how the Bengals operate.

- They sign only bottom rung FA's because they're cheap.
- They like guys with character flaws...because they're cheap.
- They won't build a practice facility because they're cheap.
- They have the tiniest scouting department and FO - chock full of family members - because they're cheap
- They draft a guard in the 1st round, then let him walk when his rookie contract is up because they're cheap.

Mike Brown definitely wants to win, but he wants to do it on the cheap. I think he views it as the ultimate challenge.

[OrangeLacroix]

The Stadium deal runs through 2025

After that, i dont see NFL in the queen city

We have 9 years to win it all

[coachmcneil71]

(03-08-2017, 11:30 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This is my first post on here, so I will start by piggybacking off another thread.

The "What is your breaking point' Thread got me thinking.

I want to understand from other common, and reasonable Bengals/Reds fans,  What do you honestly think is the impediment to these franchises?

As I belabored earlier, Reds 22 Years, Bengals 26:  0 playoff advances, 13 winning seasons in the last 48 new seasons.

This sort of dual pattern for 2 sports teams is honestly beyond unlucky.  It would be the semi-equivalent of playing Roulette and hitting black on a absurd amount of consecutive spins.

Pro teams luck in playoff success all the time -  the way the leagues are set up, you should never go 20+ years without success in the postseason.  


I have my theory - Cincinnati is a nice medium sized town, MIdwest values, kind, stuck in the past, antiquated, loyal to a fault, and not very hard to impress.   I think that permeates the sports culture here, unfortunately.  

The Owners/GMs of our teams do things so differently than everyone else, I think we need an outsider to own the teams.  Having Cincy roots with Brown, Lindner, Marge and now Castellini - These folks are deluded when it comes to running a cut-throat, fierce, and competitive franchise.

I do not know.  I am curious to hear others thoughts.   Please, do not reply if you think the leagues or umps/reffs are biased to the Bengals or Reds - Those crazy conspiracies can be saved for your next town hall w/ Rand Paul.

Welcome to the boards. Nice first post and well stated. 

[McC]

(03-08-2017, 11:39 AM)Wyche Wrote: The Bengals are inept, and have no excuse with revenue sharing and salary caps.  Son of Paul is just the worst.

Marge won a World Series, and MLB has none of those luxuries afforded the Bengals.  They made some wrong calls with their pitching staff, and now they don't have the coin to fix that quickly.  They have to develop their own.  They are reaping what they sowed for those mistakes, and they just don't have the capital to sign big money fixes like the Yanks and Sox, etc do.

In a nutshell.   Perfectly stated.

Bengals are wrapped in a safe, warm blanket.

Reds are using pistols against guys with bazookas.

[McC]

(03-08-2017, 01:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is always what killed me about the "model model" BS. If you're going to completely ignore free agency and focus solely on the draft, then why not have an NFL sized scouting department? The truth is that cheapness is the motivation for how the Bengals operate.

- They sign only bottom rung FA's because they're cheap.
- They like guys with character flaws...because they're cheap.
- They won't build a practice facility because they're cheap.
- They have the tiniest scouting department and FO - chock full of family members - because they're cheap
- They draft a guard in the 1st round, then let him walk when his rookie contract is up because they're cheap.

Mike Brown definitely wants to win, but he wants to do it on the cheap. I think he views it as the ultimate challenge.

Yep.  And the I-Fan Hostage Crisis enters its 27th year.

[OrangeLacroix]

They - The City and the Bengals - Would be smart to be working on a new deal/stadium overhaul now.

PBS needs work to be able to maintain as a facility in the new NFL.

They should also let someone buy the damn naming rights - Get some extra money so in 2026 they can re-extend Gilberry and Peko