Can a QB help an Oline?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 02:00 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Can't disagree with anything here. I do think that Brady seems to be able to do more with less than many QB's. His oline was a bunch of youngins this year and they still won the SB. Still, scheme and coaching are huge!

Bottom line the Death Star runs like a well oiled machine while the Bengals run like my first car, a 76 Buick.


I think some QBs can do more with less. I don't necessarily think that Andy fits that mold. That said, with Bodine constantly in his lap and LDE always in his face it's tough to do a lot.
Hence, another reason that I want a beast RB...aka Dalvin,LF, or possibly even the woman beater at the right spot. An exceptional RB can make lemonade out of lemons.

Hill cost the team a playoff win and to my eyes is not the answer. Even when the line creates a hole for him to run through he usually hits the wrong lane, and once in the secondary he's a fumbling liability. Once again though, scheming is huge and this CS doesn't seem to be very good at it.

100% agree.  The only time Brady struggles is when you hit him a lot.  Bill knows this....so he doesn't allow it to happen very much.  Brady does elevate no name skill players....but the line is a well oiled....plug and play....machine.  They know how to get it done.

[The_WiseOne]

(03-13-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Hard to have "presence" in a pocket sandwich. Who do you think Andy should've thrown to here?

This picture saids it all on how bad it's going to be for Andy next year! I've never seen any QB who can play in so small of a pocket like Andy does on a constant bases. Always has his center driven into his lap and his OTs at his heels on just about every pass play last year someone gets beat. It's amazing that Andy has the stats he did last year that offensive line was that bad! And we've seen what he can do when he has time to throw like he did in the 2015 season!
Build him a great line like what Dallas has and watch him shine. Remember that 2015 Line was just average at best!

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2017, 02:48 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: But can anyone do that while still being a good/effective QB? No. That's why you had people like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady at the top of that list, too. It's not just throwing the ball away quickly, it's reading defenses quickly (and before the snap) and then progressing quickly through your reads, or knowing who should be open based off what the defense is showing you.

He's got a quick release, has had a yards per attempt over 7.0 and completion % over 64 the last three years.

You discount it as parroting, but by all means, go out there with your quicker release. I am sure you can do just as well since "anyone" can do it.

I would agree with you oif the stats everyone was looking at really measured how quickly a QB reads a defense, but it doesn't.  The "quick release" stat everyone cites just measures which QB throws more short drop or quick routes. 

If they provided comparisons between QBs broken down by play i.e. "three-step drop", "five-step drop", etc then we could see which QB really reads the defense the quickest.  But all we can really tell from the stat provided is that the Bengals call more plays designed to get rid of the ball quickly.

I have seen some young QBs hold on to the ball too long because they are slow to read the defense, but I have also seen some of the best QBs in the league hold onto the ball too long in order to try and make a play (Roethisberger)

[Shake n Blake]

(03-14-2017, 01:23 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Andy seems to be good at seeing a blitz and knowing where to throw the ball, as in throw it to the area vacated by the blitzing player, but when a standard 4 man rush is driving the center back into the pocket...well that is an entirely different issue.

Fair enough. I'd say the performance of any QB is going to suffer when there is constant pressure, and I don't think there's much a QB can do to help when a center and a tackle are getting shoved backwards on a regular basis. The only thing I can think of that would help would be for the QB to go to the owner and ask for a new Center and Tackle.

My point with the blitz numbers was just to show that pressure doesn't cause Dalton to panic, contrary to the popular narratives.

(03-14-2017, 03:38 AM)bengalhoel Wrote: According to Pff in 2015 he had a 112.5 Qb rating against the blitz. You have to pay for last year's info so I couldnt see it but he was great in 2015.

Thank ya.

(03-14-2017, 03:48 AM)Wyche Wrote: Week 1 should have put that narrative to bed....sacked 7 times....366 yds....TD....no TOs.  By the end of the year...he was a bit squirrelly....but damn....who wouldn't be by that point?

Agree completely. That performance would be in my top 5 for Dalton, mainly based on guts and composure. You're also right that he didn't maintain that composure all the way to the end. After the pounding...and with LaFell as his only reliable target...that wasn't surprising.

(03-14-2017, 03:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: 100% agree.  The only time Brady struggles is when you hit him a lot.  Bill knows this....so he doesn't allow it to happen very much.  Brady does elevate no name skill players....but the line is a well oiled....plug and play....machine.  They know how to get it done.

We've seen the affects pressure has on Brady a few times, and it's clear that it knocks the shine off of him. He looked washed up when the Falcons were beating him up in the first half. He was throwing up ducks and looking flustered. Once that energy faded and the rush dissipated, suddenly Tom Terrific re-appeared.

Quote:The_WiseOne

This picture saids it all on how bad it's going to be for Andy next year! I've never seen any QB who can play in so small of a pocket like Andy does on a constant bases. Always has his center driven into his lap and his OTs at his heels on just about every pass play last year someone gets beat. It's amazing that Andy has the stats he did last year that offensive line was that bad! And we've seen what he can do when he has time to throw like he did in the 2015 season!
Build him a great line like what Dallas has and watch him shine. Remember that 2015 Line was just average at best!

Dallas took the Russell Wilson approach with Dak. As in provide an excellent line and run game, and watch the QB flourish.

Speaking of Wilson, his line also fell apart and compare his stats with Dalton's. They had nearly identical seasons. Even running the ball.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-14-2017, 08:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I would agree with you oif the stats everyone was looking at really measured how quickly a QB reads a defense, but it doesn't.  The "quick release" stat everyone cites just measures which QB throws more short drop or quick routes. 

If that were the case, the Bengals should be consistently among the top 5 in YAC. Think about it. If Dalton is consistently among the league leaders in short drop/quick routes, and simultaneously among the upper half in YPA/YPC, the YAC numbers for his receivers should be fantastic. I don't think we throw short much more than most teams.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 09:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If that were the case, the Bengals should be consistently among the top 5 in YAC. Think about it. If Dalton is consistently among the league leaders in short drop/quick routes, and simultaneously among the upper half in YPA/YPC, the YAC numbers for his receivers should be fantastic. I don't think we throw short much more than most teams.

Wonder why Gruden and Hue had the Bengals offense getting the ball out so quickly?  Hmmmmm, I wonder.....what could be the reason for your whole offense to be predicated on getting the ball out in around 2 seconds flat......hmmmmm.....could it be to mask a deficient unit?



:paul:

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2017, 09:15 AM)Wyche Wrote: Wonder why Gruden and Hue had the Bengals offense getting the ball out so quickly?  Hmmmmm, I wonder.....what could be the reason for your whole offense to be predicated on getting the ball out in around 2 seconds flat......hmmmmm.....could it be to mask a deficient unit?



:paul:

Is that why the Patriots do the exact same thing?

Oh, wit, I forgot how things work around here.  when the Bengals do something it is because they suck.  But when other good teams do the exact same thing it is because they are so much smarter than the Bengals.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 12:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Is that why the Patriots do the exact same thing?

Oh, wit, I forgot how things work around here.  when the Bengals do something it is because they suck.  But when other good teams do the exact same thing it is because they are so much smarter than the Bengals.

Maybe you need to read up further in the thread.....the Patsies give Brady up to 10 seconds in the pocket.....with regularity.  When's the last time Andy had even five seconds? BTW, you have some questions and lies you've been caught in you've been ignoring in your Piano Man troll thread, quit worrying about me.

Sorry....I shouldn't have  :troll:

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2017, 12:04 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe you need to read up further in the thread.....the Patsies give Brady up to 10 seconds in the pocket.....with regularity.  When's the last time Andy had even five seconds?  BTW, you have some questions and lies you've been caught in you've been ignoring in your Piano Man troll thread, quit worrying about me.

Sorry....I shouldn't have  :troll:

Maybe you need to look at the facts and read what I have been saying.

How is it possible for Brady to have the quickest release in the league and still hold the ball for 10 seconds in the pocket?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 12:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe you need to look at the facts and read what I have been saying.

How is it possible for Brady to have the quickest release in the league and still hold the ball for 10 seconds in the pocket

I dunno, did you watch the AFCCG?

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2017, 02:04 PM)Wyche Wrote: I dunno,

At least you are man enough to admit it for once.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: At least you are man enough to admit it for once.

Answer the question counselor.....

[Derrick]

(03-14-2017, 09:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If that were the case, the Bengals should be consistently among the top 5 in YAC. Think about it. If Dalton is consistently among the league leaders in short drop/quick routes, and simultaneously among the upper half in YPA/YPC, the YAC numbers for his receivers should be fantastic. I don't think we throw short much more than most teams.

You would be right IF, the Bengals had a decent line and a reasonable running game that made passing a better option. However, the opponents don't fear the long pass because Dalton rarely has time to throw it. So the defenses stack the box; stuff the runner; push the C and T into the pocket; and shut down any YAC in the short passing game too. Thank you PA.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-14-2017, 12:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't know where to find the numbers, but I've heard Andy has had outstanding numbers against the blitz over the last couple years.

My fear is that teams will not need to blitz, they will be able to bring plenty of pressure with four guys.  I think there is going to be a lot of Andy throwing to his first read, but still ending up on his butt shortly after the throw.  I definitely do not see much time for routes to open up downfield, which is going to bring the safeties closer to the line and make the run game/short throws that much more difficult.  They can keep Hewitt in to block, have the backs help to pick up the free rusher, but I firmly believe this line will cause a lot of problems for the offense this year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 04:20 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: My fear is that teams will not need to blitz, they will be able to bring plenty of pressure with four guys.  I think there is going to be a lot of Andy throwing to his first read, but still ending up on his butt shortly after the throw.  I definitely do not see much time for routes to open up downfield, which is going to bring the safeties closer to the line and make the run game/short throws that much more difficult.  They can keep Hewitt in to block, have the backs help to pick up the free rusher, but I firmly believe this line will cause a lot of problems for the offense this year.

Yup, and with pressure from only four, it means it will be harder and harder to find an open receiver, much less find one with someone in your face in two seconds.  Good ol Piano Man has really ****** us this time......

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-14-2017, 04:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yup, and with pressure from only four, it means it will be harder and harder to find an open receiver, much less find one with someone in your face in two seconds.  Good ol Piano Man has really ***** us this time......

PA yes, but at the end of the day it's Marvin, Katie, and Mike that are responsible.  After all, he reports to them.  We're all a bunch of guys posting on a message board, and we can see the current state of the offensive line.  Any one of us can look and think "the line was not good last year, no way can we lose the only two who played well".  We're honestly not talking about rocket science here... last year we could all look and say "Ogbuehi is getting killed every play, why is he still out there"?  Surely Marvin from the sidelines and ownership from their box could see the same things...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-14-2017, 04:34 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: PA yes, but at the end of the day it's Marvin, Katie, and Mike that are responsible.  After all, he reports to them.  We're all a bunch of guys posting on a message board, and we can see the current state of the offensive line.  Any one of us can look and think "the line was not good last year, no way can we lose the only two who played well".  We're honestly not talking about rocket science here... last year we could all look and say "Ogbuehi is getting killed every play, why is he still out there"?  Surely Marvin from the sidelines and ownership from their box could see the same things...

I lay the blame solely at the feet of Mike Clown.  He's that one that has kept him here since Dave Shula was coach.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-14-2017, 04:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: I lay the blame solely at the feet of Mike Clown.  He's that one that has kept him here since Dave Shula was coach.

I think we should permanently ban the names Dave Shula and Akili Smith from our collective vocabularies

[eoxyod]

(03-13-2017, 10:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If this were 2013, I'd agree with you. I think he's been a + in the pocket since working with House.

2015 was his biggest leap in that department, and I didn't see much - if any - regression last year. I was proud of how he seemed unphased by the copious amounts of pressure.

You're right. In 2015 it wasn't a problem. In 2016 it came back though. It's almost as though we lost a coach with a long history of positive development of players and an awesome offensive scheme, who the team was too afraid to let take the reins of the HC spot. (That sarcastic comment isn't meant for you, just towards the team)

Dalton did great in 2015 because our scheme allowed for it, but there were still instances (too many) where he doesn't shuffle and reset, and will scramble to the right or left which is often not a great idea because you are cutting down on half the field

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2017, 03:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: Answer the question counselor.....

No.  I don't play that game.  When people start asking questions that have nothing to do with the point I am making I just ignore them.

My point is that it looks silly to claim that using a quick passing game is proof PA is a bad coach while at the same time saying the Patriots, who depend on a quick passing game, have an excellent o-line.

"The grass is green, you say?  Just more proof of how bad Paul Alexander is.  Did you know he has mastered a musical instrument.  He has to suck."