Brandon LaFell IS the Answer at Wide Receiver

[WeezyBengal]

(03-24-2017, 01:11 PM)Go Cards Wrote: LaFell is an ok stopgap. As good as Marvin Jones is a crazy comparison though and he is not the Bengals future.

Agree we should draft WR but not early. Bengals need an elite pass rusher and to bolster OL in early rounds imo.  

Have a wealth of picks and could draft several WR's later and see who pans out.

Marvin Jones was a fifth rounder if I remember right and he worked out pretty good.

Should attack the trenches early.

I just gave you the numbers. Comparing Marvin Jones to Brandon Lafell is not crazy at all.

[WeezyBengal]

(03-24-2017, 03:09 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Our best year since 1988 was in 2015 when Andy was surrounded by an abundance of weapons and had a competent line that gave him enough time to progress through his reads. Do you think that was a coincidence? And this is the same offense that ranked 25th last year. What is the ceiling of this offense as is now?

Andy has the weapons. The offensive line is the issue. 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-22-2017, 05:42 PM)jj22 Wrote: Jones did it with a healthy Green. Lafell didn't really show up until Green was injured. Lafell is an ok piece, but he's not the missing piece at wideout Jones brought the offense. Jones opened up the middle/intermediate of the field as defenses cleared out to cover him deep.

Jones fought Green for those reception. I think that makes the numbers a little different with perspective.

I'm not claiming LaFell is the long term answer, but man do people ever overrate Marvin Jones. The guy was a borderline bust in Detroit. He was benched at one point and outplayed by a 53 year old Anquan Boldin. His hands - which have been praised - turned to stone. He struggled mightily once he started drawing #1 CBs.

LaFell offers a little less speed, but makes up for it with savvy. Fwiw, LaFell had 11 catches of 20+ yards and 4 catches of 40+ yards. In 2015, MLJ had 13 catches of 20+ yards and 4 catches of 40+ yards. Nearly identical deep production.

(03-22-2017, 07:40 PM)eoxyod Wrote: There are a couple of factors not shown here:
1. Jones has/had more long term upside, and is still much more dynamic. Posting raw stats to compare the 2 is pointless
2. LaFell has about half the talent Jones has
3. LaFell has been long term more disappointing in the league, and it's hard to say last year was much different
4. Corey Davis, if the Bengals were to get him, should be leagues ahead of other WRs we could acquire and again, is a stronger option long term
5. LaFell's deal is basically a cop out on the 2nd year. Even the Bengals are prepared to cut him next year if they get a good enough options
6. Dalton is a QB that needs about everything going right around him to be great, so giving him more works
7. Eifert is not reliable at all so scratch him out of the equation

8. Now overall WR is not the most important position in the world. You can win without great ones, but if the other talent doesn't fit the Bengals in the draft and a player like Davis is there, you pull the trigger without a 2nd thought

Some pretty harsh opinions here.

1. I wouldn't say "pointless". There's more to it than stats, but production is production. I assume by dynamic, you mean speed. I addressed that with jj22.
2. That's just being silly. Did anyone pay attention to Jones with Detroit last year? It was a total disappointment considering what they paid.
3. Calling LaFell a disappointment is a bit much. For a 3rd round pick he's produced almost 5000 yards and 26 TDs by age 30. He's only missed 8% of his career games compared to 26% for Jones. He was a key player in a championship run while Jones has yet to win a playoff game. He just produced the best season by a Bengals #2 WR since Housh.
4. Can't disagree there. 
5. LaFell will turn 31 this year. A 2 year deal with an easy out is pretty standard considering he's not a star.
6. True, but that makes him no different than any other good-not-quite-elite QB.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed, but only if all the top options are gone.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-24-2017, 03:37 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: No No No, just because the combine, and they wrote an article on it, doesn't mean it is going to come to fruition that his speed will be a concern.  He is a beast, and with who we have on the other side there is no two CB in the entire leauge to be able to stop what we have to offer them.  I am telling you if we do not pick this guy up and we let him go to The Steelers we will be in trouble for Years to come.  Mark it down put a stamp on it, I am telling you if we get him we change how we play football in Cincy.   

Not saying i would dislike the pick, we just need speed.

I heard what Mikey Williams said about why he didn't run the forty at the combine and that bothered me as well.

I usually do not put much stock in the forty either. But if it is crazy fast or crazy slow you have to.

Did Williams run the forty at his pro-day? What was it?

[Crowe]

(03-22-2017, 05:41 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I keep seeing people post about drafting a wide receiver in the first round and it makes me sick. This team has SO many more needs than wide receiver. We have Lafell, Eiffert, AJ, and Boyd (a second round pick who will only be better than last year). That is PLENTY of weapons through the air.

What if we had still had Marvin Jones, would you then want us to go out and get a receiver? No, you say? Why, because Marvin Jones was good?

Well, look at these numbers:

Comparing Marvin Jones' 2015 with the Bengals (hit last year) and Lafell's numbers with the Bengals in 2016

Marvin Jones
103 Targets
65 Receptions
816 yards
4 TDs

Brandon Lafell
106 Targets
64 Receptions
862 yards
6 TDS


Fred stated it in another post and heres the numbers to back it up. Lafell was good last year. As good or better than Marvin Jones was for us. The dude can be the answer at wide receiver for us and he proved it in the second half of last year.

Heck you can go one farther and compare Lafell's numbers with Jones numbers from this past year in Detroit and Lafell minus 50 or so yards had a better season.

With Core and Boyd both going into year 2 we should see them improve along with hopefully the cohesion between them and Dalton along with Lafell.  If we have Green the whole year and Eifert the whole year then that alleviates pressure off of the other guys which then should allow them to perform even better.

I wouldn't be against grabbing a nice speedster or a big WR in the mid rounds, but I want nothing to do with one in the 1st or 2nd unless they don't value any other players.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-24-2017, 03:51 PM)Crowe Wrote: Heck you can go one farther and compare Lafell's numbers with Jones numbers from this past year in Detroit and Lafell minus 50 or so yards had a better season.

With Core and Boyd both going into year 2 we should see them improve along with hopefully the cohesion between them and Dalton along with Lafell.  If we have Green the whole year and Eifert the whole year then that alleviates pressure off of the other guys which then should allow them to perform even better.

I wouldn't be against grabbing a nice speedster or a big WR in the mid rounds, but I want nothing to do with one in the 1st or 2nd unless they don't value any other players.

K.D. Cannon is a guy i really like in the mid rounds.

I do understand why some don't like the thought of a WR at 9 and we do have a good WR coach to coach up our existing dudes...

If the top pass rushers are gone i definately would not be against the speed of Ross or Davis though.

[Crowe]

(03-24-2017, 03:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: K.D. Cannon is a guy i really like in the mid rounds.

I do understand why some don't like the thought of a WR at 9 and we do have a good WR coach to coach up our existing dudes...

If the top pass rushers are gone i definately would not be against the speed of Ross or Davis though.

Ill tell ya, if we didn't have serious needs at pass rusher and more athleticism at LB I'd be all for a WR at 9. Corey Davis would be legit in this offense, I just think this year we need to draft for need the first few picks and WR for me is around the 5th biggest need maybe even 6th depending on how our guys come back from injury.

I don't know much about Cannon, is he more of a deep threat?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-24-2017, 03:58 PM)Crowe Wrote: Ill tell ya, if we didn't have serious needs at pass rusher and more athleticism at LB I'd be all for a WR at 9. Corey Davis would be legit in this offense, I just think this year we need to draft for need the first few picks and WR for me is around the 5th biggest need maybe even 6th depending on how our guys come back from injury.

I don't know much about Cannon, is he more of a deep threat?

I get that, but we can still address a pass rusher in the 2nd round and getting Minter i think took some pressure off of LB.

Yeah, Cannon is a speedster with size, he is a deep threat and a returner. Surprised some have him going as late as the 6th round.

Cannon is my sleeper WR this year.

Josh Reynolds in the 3rd round is another.

[Crowe]

(03-24-2017, 04:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I get that, but we can still address a pass rusher in the 2nd round and getting Minter i think took some pressure off of LB.

Yeah, Cannon is a speedster with size, he is a deep threat and a returner. Surprised some have him going as late as the 6th round.

Cannon is my sleeper WR this year.

Josh Reynolds in the 3rd round is another.

I like what I saw from Reynolds, I'll have to check out tape on Cannon.

[coachmcneil71]

(03-22-2017, 07:40 PM)eoxyod Wrote: There are a couple of factors not shown here:
1. Jones has/had more long term upside, and is still much more dynamic. Posting raw stats to compare the 2 is pointless
2. LaFell has about half the talent Jones has
3. LaFell has been long term more disappointing in the league, and it's hard to say last year was much different
4. Corey Davis, if the Bengals were to get him, should be leagues ahead of other WRs we could acquire and again, is a stronger option long term
5. LaFell's deal is basically a cop out on the 2nd year. Even the Bengals are prepared to cut him next year if they get a good enough options
6. Dalton is a QB that needs about everything going right around him to be great, so giving him more works
7. Eifert is not reliable at all so scratch him out of the equation

Now overall WR is not the most important position in the world. You can win without great ones, but if the other talent doesn't fit the Bengals in the draft and a player like Davis is there, you pull the trigger without a 2nd thought

Tell me again, I forget sometimes. Which team had the best WR in the game last year? Which team won the SB with a bunch of late round WRs? One of which was a college QB.

Usually, you post good stuff eox. This is a very thin post at best. I do agree about Davis though.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-22-2017, 05:42 PM)jj22 Wrote: Jones did it with a healthy Green. Lafell didn't really show up until Green was injured. Lafell is an ok piece, but he's not the missing piece at wideout Jones brought the offense. Jones opened up the middle/intermediate of the field as defenses cleared out to cover him deep.

Jones fought Green for those reception. I think that makes the numbers a little different with perspective.

your statement is not accurate.. he had more TDs before Green got hurt.. also had 2 of his 5 highest yards before Green.. he was not a shadow before Green.. I posted before the overall stats... he was in high end of 2nd WR stats in the league. .also all teams have some of their better players go down and get hurt during a game.. too many variables to try to judge all.. so overall stats still a better variable to cross compare

[Essex Johnson]

Something many people forget is he played hurt all year with his hand.. plus a total professional.. i love the story when he was out banged up, realized too few WRs dressed for a practice,, went back got dressed and practice.. that is that type of guy you want to have on your team and playing 2/3 WR for you.

[Jpoore]

(03-24-2017, 08:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I wouldn't go this far, but this is pretty accurate.  

If you evaluate Lafell by his stats alone, you miss the point.  His position at #2 is really only by default.  Gio out of the backfield and Tyler Eifert would likely have been the #2 and #3 options if healthy.  He is really a #4 and with Boyd in the slot that is even arguable.  

However, he is a solid route-runner with very good hands.  He is an excellent blocker as well.  If he was a clown off the field, he wouldn't be here but the team loves him and he is a pro that works to get everyone better in his unit.

The problem becomes, if AJ Green goes down, can the Bengals create opportunities underneath with the aforementioned Eifert, Gio, and Boyd?  The answer is a resounding no.  Cody Core looked 100X better than his debut against Houston and maybe he can play that role to an extent, but I think Davis or Ross would make this offense elite.  

Thats my point. Maybe worst number 2 is a bit far, but still. Gb offense at least looked somewhat functionabke when nelson went down. Ours did not when aj green went down. We couldnt get open against anyone. Lafell could not beat 1 on 1 coverage when aj was in. I have likened our team with williams to the indianapolis colts with peyton manning, reggie wayne, marvin harrisson, dallas clark. We would have a 1a, 1b wr duo better than any other in the nfl. With eifert and boyd working the middle. How many number 2 corners would you trust in 1 on 1 coverage against williams?? Im also a big fan of davis. Not a fan of ross due to 4 leg surgeries in 2 years plus the labrum. I really think the team will go wr at 9 if top de are gone. Lafell also has 0 guarenteed in year 2.

(03-24-2017, 12:49 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: This statement is utterly ridiculous! Your man crush on Williams is only slightly apparent  . Not trying to make you blush or anything.

Here's a short list of WRs that were drafted in THE FOURTH RD!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Largent, Chris Carter, John Stallworth, Andre Reed, & Charlie Joiner! Oh btw, ALL are HOFamers.

To answer your question; no.

Heres a short list of wrs in the first round. Aj green, julio jones, megatron, obj, fitgerald, wayne all future hof.thats the bengals lroblem we never have an elite offense. What would u give to have the indianapolis colts offense of mid 2000s? Thats what it would be with williams or davis.

(03-24-2017, 01:25 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Like Mike Williams but not his 4.53 40 time.

He has great hands and body and certainly will be available at 9.

If the Bengals want him believe they can trade back and get him though. Not sure he goes in top 15 and some have him ranked near bottom of first round.

Louisville held him to 5 catches for 70 yards and a TD in a shoot out. Solid stats but Louisville had no shut down corners by any means.

Think he benefits from having a great QB who can buy time when necessary.

Not saying he is bad, because he is really good. But worthy of a 9th pick ? Not sold.

4.49-4.53 at 218 pound and 6"4 is really good. Its dez bryant aj green time while being heavier. And he also deatroyed 3 first round corners in his final 2 games.

(03-24-2017, 03:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eh, Williams speed is concerning to me like Treadwell last year and look how Treadwell played in his rookie year.

Core outplayed Treadwell in less games with less snaps by far. Speed is what we need in our WR corps.

Give me Ross or Davis over Williams for this very reason.

CB's in the NFL can go up for the ball too, it won't be a walk in the park for Mike Williams like it was in college.

You mean cbs like lattimore or humphries or conley? 3 first round corners? Williams ran a 4.49-4.53. At 4.49 thats faster than aj while being heavier.

[Jpoore]

(03-24-2017, 08:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: your statement is not accurate.. he had more TDs before Green got hurt.. also had 2 of his 5 highest yards before Green.. he was not a shadow before Green.. I posted before the overall stats... he was in high end of 2nd WR stats in the league. .also all teams have some of their better players go down and get hurt during a game.. too many variables to try to judge all.. so overall stats still a better variable to cross compare

He also had games where he only had 9 yards or 6 yards in an entire game.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-24-2017, 08:51 PM)Jpoore Wrote: He also had games where he only had 9 yards or 6 yards in an entire game

and Brown the best WR in the game had 2 games under 40 and 2 more under 60.... last year... 
still look at his stats and compare to most 2nd WRs.. he still ranks well for a entire season with those two games you mentioned in the books...

[*Go Cards*]

(03-24-2017, 03:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not claiming LaFell is the long term answer, but man do people ever overrate Marvin Jones. The guy was a borderline bust in Detroit. He was benched at one point and outplayed by a 53 year old Anquan Boldin. His hands - which have been praised - turned to stone. He struggled mightily once he started drawing #1 CBs.

LaFell offers a little less speed, but makes up for it with savvy. Fwiw, LaFell had 11 catches of 20+ yards and 4 catches of 40+ yards. In 2015, MLJ had 13 catches of 20+ yards and 4 catches of 40+ yards. Nearly identical deep production.


Some pretty harsh opinions here.

1. I wouldn't say "pointless". There's more to it than stats, but production is production. I assume by dynamic, you mean speed. I addressed that with jj22.
2. That's just being silly. Did anyone pay attention to Jones with Detroit last year? It was a total disappointment considering what they paid.
3. Calling LaFell a disappointment is a bit much. For a 3rd round pick he's produced almost 5000 yards and 26 TDs by age 30. He's only missed 8% of his career games compared to 26% for Jones. He was a key player in a championship run while Jones has yet to win a playoff game. He just produced the best season by a Bengals #2 WR since Housh.
4. Can't disagree there. 
5. LaFell will turn 31 this year. A 2 year deal with an easy out is pretty standard considering he's not a star.
6. True, but that makes him no different than any other good-not-quite-elite QB.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed, but only if all the top options are gone.

Think Jones is good imo but not a #1 by any means. 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-25-2017, 12:26 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Think Jones is good imo but not a #1 by any means. 

I'd say Jones was an above average #2 while LaFell is an average #2. Not a huge difference though.

A lot of people paint Jones like he was a game changer and I just didn't see it.

[Jpoore]

(03-25-2017, 01:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Jones was an above average #2 while LaFell is an average #2. Not a huge difference though.

A lot of people paint Jones like he was a game changer and I just didn't see it.

while jones wasnt a game changer on a game to game basis, he did have the abilty to take over games. Lafell does not and i think thats the big differnce between them.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-25-2017, 02:42 AM)Jpoore Wrote: while jones wasnt a game changer on a game to game basis, he did have the abilty to take over games. Lafell does not and i think thats the big differnce between them.

You mentioned about lack of production from Brandon in some games.. you do know that Jones had 5 games in 2015 with less than 35 receiving yards and only two games over 90 yards and 4 TDS... Brandon had 4 games over 90 yards this past season and six TDs... 

I don;t see a bit take over games comparison in the last season with Bengals for Jones, and Brandons first season... lets see what Lafell does over the next two years and then compare a 3 year average of the two before we annoint Jones over Lafell

[Jpoore]

(03-25-2017, 03:55 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: You mentioned about lack of production from Brandon in some games.. you do know that Jones had 5 games in 2015 with less than 35 receiving yards and only two games over 90 yards and 4 TDS... Brandon had 4 games over 90 yards this past season and six TDs... 

I don;t see a bit take over games comparison in the last season with Bengals for Jones, and Brandons first season... lets see what Lafell does over the next two years and then compare a 3 year average of the two before we annoint Jones over Lafell

i get ur point but lafell will be on the decline as well very shortly. Also when i said jones has the ability to take over games, was refering for example his 4 td game or things like that. And again 2015 is not a great comparison bc jones was at best the number 3. Lafell was the 2/1 most of year. Really dont think he cracks 600 this year if eifert stays healthy.