Is Derek Barnett Really That Good?

[*psychdoctor*]

I really like McKinley better but not at number nine.

[BURROWorBUST]

(04-05-2017, 02:47 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The more I look at this guy, the more I am starting to wonder if he is better than the following guys:

Lawson
Harris
Williams
Willis
McKinley

I've watched the above guys play more than a few times, and it seems that they all have more explosion and just as good of an overall pass rush as Barnett.  IS there really that much difference between those guys and Barnett?

I totally agree. I'm more impressed with guys like TJ Watt and T. Brasham. Basham is a stud. I know he played at OU, but that guy has the most incredible motor that I've seen in a long time in a DE. He's the obvious leader of that defense. He'd be great in stripes. Honest, I'm beginning to think we should go WR or RB (including Mixon) at 9. I mention Mixon because of the amount of time we've spent with him. Especially if Fournette is gone by 9, I won't be shocked to see them take Mixon. I know alot of people here oppose drafting a guy with this kid's past. I respect that, but hasn't he been a model citizen since that incident? 

But back to the DE position, I think we could take Basham in the second, unless they think he might drop to the 3rd, which ideally, would allow us to take Pat Elflein in the 2nd. TRIFECTA! 

[CJD]

(04-05-2017, 05:31 PM)lostpoet2 Wrote: The coaches should take Ogbuehi with them when working out defensive ends.  If the prospect can beat Ced, then he is possibly an NFL player.

More like if they can't beat him then they are not even worth a draft pick at all.

[B3ng4Ls420]

I will take T.J Watt at 41 rather than Barnett at 9

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-05-2017, 02:47 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The more I look at this guy, the more I am starting to wonder if he is better than the following guys:

Lawson
Harris
Williams
Willis
McKinley

I've watched the above guys play more than a few times, and it seems that they all have more explosion and just as good of an overall pass rush as Barnett.  IS there really that much difference between those guys and Barnett?

Gotta say, he isn't much better at all the closer we get to the draft. Have to trust Tobin, Guenther and Burney on this one
but i am really liking Jordan Willis, Takk McKinley and Carl Lawson more and more in the 2nd. OJ Howard or Johnathan Allen
in the first. Imagine getting Allen and Willis with our first two picks, DL looks scary.

[Au165]

(04-07-2017, 03:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Gotta say, he isn't much better at all the closer we get to the draft. Have to trust Tobin, Guenther and Burney on this one
but i am really liking Jordan Willis, Takk McKinley and Carl Lawson more and more in the 2nd. OJ Howard or Johnathan Allen
in the first. Imagine getting Allen and Willis with our first two picks, DL looks scary.

Allen and Willis is a bit redundant to me. Allen only is kicking to a 3 technique to spell Geno or going inside to the NT on passing downs. I think Clark can still be a good rotational guy so where does that leave Willis? You won't be able to stash him on PS and I don't think we can carry him for the year. If we grab a project guy late that is fine, but first two picks DL when we have Billings still coming this year seems to be excessive.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2017, 04:15 PM)Au165 Wrote: Allen and Willis is a bit redundant to me. Allen only is kicking to a 3 technique to spell Geno or going inside to the NT on passing downs. I think Clark can still be a good rotational guy so where does that leave Willis? You won't be able to stash him on PS and I don't think we can carry him for the year. If we grab a project guy late that is fine, but first two picks DL when we have Billings still coming this year seems to be excessive.

Sounds to me like a fine rotation. :andy:

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-05-2017, 02:47 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The more I look at this guy, the more I am starting to wonder if he is better than the following guys:

Lawson
Harris
Williams
Willis
McKinley

I've watched the above guys play more than a few times, and it seems that they all have more explosion and just as good of an overall pass rush as Barnett.  IS there really that much difference between those guys and Barnett?

Barnett has a skill that is difficult to quantify:  bend.  He can lower his shoulder and be bent one direction while his legs stay under him and he drives through a blocker that gets too high.  He then can set up an inside move with a swim-over.  He has a good variety of moves (I am done watching MJ go on a huge arc and get ridden 10 yards out of the play time after time) and incredible flexibility.  I also like his hunter's mentality.  He takes his performance seriously and he hates losing.  I want a bunch of guys like that.

Finally, you don't break Reggie White's record at UT for sacks by being lucky.  Great production against some of the best players in college football.  

Barnett isn't going to wow you with 40 times, bench press, etc.  but he WILL get pressure from the outside.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-05-2017, 07:02 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I think after Garrett, this is a class filled with a bunch of similar players.  It's way too deep to spend a top 10 pick on a guy like Barnett when you could get a similar guy at #41

While I don't necessarily want to pass on Barnett at #9, I would explore trading back if both Ross and Davis are on the board and get the WR in Rd 1 and the DE in Rd 2.  

I would love a draft that goes:

Ross, WR
Willis, DE
Asiata, G/C (trade from team in Rd 1 to slide back a few spots)
Beckwith, LB

That would be a really good first two days...

Then, look at packaging some of the later picks to move back in to the 4th to get the kicker, Zane Gonzalez, after getting Jake Butt at the beginning of Rd 4.

Then, take Ifeadi Odenigbo in Rd 5.  That guy is going to end up being a solid contributor.  

Man, I hope and pray the Bengals nail this one.  This draft is huge.  

[*Go Cards*]

Would be very happy with Barnett at #9.

But what is the UT expert Fredtoasts opinion on this ?

[*bfine32*]

Lance Zuelien was on Sirius today talking about Barnett. Thinks he'll drop into the second half of the 1st Rd. Lack of raw tools (athleticism/length, ect...)

[SunsetBengal]

(04-10-2017, 09:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Barnett has a skill that is difficult to quantify:  bend.  He can lower his shoulder and be bent one direction while his legs stay under him and he drives through a blocker that gets too high.  He then can set up an inside move with a swim-over.  He has a good variety of moves (I am done watching MJ go on a huge arc and get ridden 10 yards out of the play time after time) and incredible flexibility.  I also like his hunter's mentality.  He takes his performance seriously and he hates losing.  I want a bunch of guys like that.

Finally, you don't break Reggie White's record at UT for sacks by being lucky.  Great production against some of the best players in college football.  

Barnett isn't going to wow you with 40 times, bench press, etc.  but he WILL get pressure from the outside.  

That is one of the better arguments for drafting Barnett that I've seen on here.  Nice job, well written.

(04-14-2017, 03:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Lance Zuelien was on Sirius today talking about Barnett. Thinks he'll drop into the second half of the 1st Rd. Lack of raw tools (athleticism/length, ect...)

I'm in the crowd that was high on him, then I cooled a bit.  I watched a good bit of his bowl game this year, and he looked good, not fantastic.  I had trouble rationalizing what all the fuss was about.  Then I watch Demarcus Walker playing against a very good Michigan OL, and I'm just blown away. 

I'm not saying that Barnett isn't as good as his career numbers would imply, or that Walker is somehow better than Barnett.  The conclusion I draw to is that Walker seemed to be one to rise up in the big game, while Barnett seemed to be a bit neutralized.

As Bengal fans, we've seen plenty of "star" players that look great in some games, then seem to "disappear" when it comes to the big stage games, like Steelers games or playoff games.  I'd just prefer to see them draft a player, whoever it is that they choose, who's star shone brightest in the biggest games.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-14-2017, 05:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm in the crowd that was high on him, then I cooled a bit.  I watched a good bit of his bowl game this year, and he looked good, not fantastic.  I had trouble rationalizing what all the fuss was about.  Then I watch Demarcus Walker playing against a very good Michigan OL, and I'm just blown away. 

I'm not saying that Barnett isn't as good as his career numbers would imply, or that Walker is somehow better than Barnett.  The conclusion I draw to is that Walker seemed to be one to rise up in the big game, while Barnett seemed to be a bit neutralized.

As Bengal fans, we've seen plenty of "star" players that look great in some games, then seem to "disappear" when it comes to the big stage games, like Steelers games or playoff games.  I'd just prefer to see them draft a player, whoever it is that they choose, who's star shone brightest in the biggest games.

Good comparison with Barnett and Walker.  I would say that Barnett was more consistent with his motor and production against all his competition whereas Walker had a reputation for taking some plays off....I can't put that much stock in that as he played over 90% of the snaps for FSU and was a big part of their Championship team.

I look at it two ways:  Get the DE in the first, WR in the second:  Barnett, Curtis Samuel

or, flip it around:  Get Ross, WR in the first, and Willis, DE in the second.

I actually like the idea of Ross and Willis best because I love both of those guys...as people and athletes.  I want playmakers.  They are both playmakers.  

[Whatever]

(04-14-2017, 05:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is one of the better arguments for drafting Barnett that I've seen on here.  Nice job, well written.



I'm in the crowd that was high on him, then I cooled a bit.  I watched a good bit of his bowl game this year, and he looked good, not fantastic.  I had trouble rationalizing what all the fuss was about.  Then I watch Demarcus Walker playing against a very good Michigan OL, and I'm just blown away. 

I'm not saying that Barnett isn't as good as his career numbers would imply, or that Walker is somehow better than Barnett.  The conclusion I draw to is that Walker seemed to be one to rise up in the big game, while Barnett seemed to be a bit neutralized.

As Bengal fans, we've seen plenty of "star" players that look great in some games, then seem to "disappear" when it comes to the big stage games, like Steelers games or playoff games.  I'd just prefer to see them draft a player, whoever it is that they choose, who's star shone brightest in the biggest games.

One thing that really nags me about Barnett is that he just seems lazy.  He didn't appear to be in good physical shape at the combine or his Pro Day.  When you look at the slow starts to his seasons(only 3 sacks in the first 4 weeks of his three seasons), that seems very indicative of a guy who isn't working hard in the off-season and is playing his way into football shape the first month of the season.

[Burma]

(04-14-2017, 05:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is one of the better arguments for drafting Barnett that I've seen on here.  Nice job, well written.



I'm in the crowd that was high on him, then I cooled a bit.  I watched a good bit of his bowl game this year, and he looked good, not fantastic.  I had trouble rationalizing what all the fuss was about.  Then I watch Demarcus Walker playing against a very good Michigan OL, and I'm just blown away. 

I'm not saying that Barnett isn't as good as his career numbers would imply, or that Walker is somehow better than Barnett.  The conclusion I draw to is that Walker seemed to be one to rise up in the big game, while Barnett seemed to be a bit neutralized.

As Bengal fans, we've seen plenty of "star" players that look great in some games, then seem to "disappear" when it comes to the big stage games, like Steelers games or playoff games.  I'd just prefer to see them draft a player, whoever it is that they choose, who's star shone brightest in the biggest games.

As a Michigan man I can tell you that the Oline was not good. Not even close to very good.  They lost their starting LT, Grant Newsome with a Teddy Bridgewater like knee injury. It was so bad he is already ruled out for this season and his career is in doubt now. The kid who filled in for him was no where close to ready. He was just dominated in the Buckeye game to such an extent that it affected the whole Offensive game plan. Were talking Ced O level badness. And while the rest of the Oline was experienced and highly rated coming out of high school they were not a good unit. Look at the draft grades for the ones who are draftable this year. The OL was probably 3rd worst unit of that team, slightly above the safeties, and clearly better than the poor RB core.

Here is a blurb from the 2016 Orange Bowl analysis 

Quote:Michigan O vs. FSU D


Michigan's O will be Successful If....
Michigan has a solid top 25 O. They have lots of experience and talent, 2 senior WRs who will be drafted and an All-American TE. The weakest unit on the O is the OL. I know that many people are apprehensive or skeptical of placing too much importance in the Adjusted OL Yards metric, but Michigan is barely a top 50 team in OLY