Jonathan Allen DE?DT

[Essex Johnson]

(04-10-2017, 04:51 PM)Au165 Wrote: No MJ really didn't. He did drop into coverage occasionaly, but we have never lined him up inside (with regularity like the others maybe once in a blue moon). We did use to move Rucker and Fanene inside, but not MJ he has always been our outside presence minus when he left for a season. He played LB for a while too, but not DT.

Yea we will have to agree to disagree, the guy has played every position at Alabama I think he can be successful on the outside.

if we go DE with 9 i prefer a more polished DE edge rusher not a DE/DT  .  I don;t think Thomas will slide but that is who i would want.. Barnett seems to be ranked better as an edge rusher... 

[NATI BENGALS]

I would love to know the success rate of 4-3 DEs who have the measurables of Allen. Can not be high.

The shoulders concerns me. But the below average testing numbers across the board concern me more.

If we ran a 3-4 I would be all over him. As a pass rusher in a 4-3 he isn't what we need. We need someone who can get to the QB fast. We have the slow power guys who play the run well and take 6 seconds to get close to the QB.

Barnett has me worried because of his athleticism. As a DE Allen is outclassed by Barnett.

I just dont know.

I won't bang the drum for Allen.
But on draft day if he is available when we are on the clock I will probably be hoping we pick him.
If we do pick him I will be on the bandwagon.
If we pass on him I will be mad for at most 24 hours and move on.

[phil413]

Pretend they get a report that he has 6 or 7 years until it hinders him. It may be the first time in history a future comp pick is ever discussed in a war room.

[J24]

He replaces Gilberry as a nickel DT and he replaces Geno at 3t when Geno takes his rest during games. Yes you draft him its not even close to being worthy of a discussion.

[*SHRacerX*]

This will surely be the minority vote here, but I pass (or try to act interested and trade back to someone who really wants him) on Allen. Here's why: He isn't a true RDE and I don't think he can be at the NFL level. He lacks the speed, length, and agility to play on the edge. I think he was very successful in college when he rotated inside because he had massive talent around him and some speed demons rotating off the edge that teams had to focus on.

He is a very talented player, don't get me wrong. Stout at the point of attack, a good run-stuffing DE, but not a guy that will terrorize QBs off the edge. If we want him because of what he can do on third downs, rotating inside, then you have to think of him more as a DT than a DE and they simply can't rank one that highly.

I like him, but more for a 3-4 team playing DE. Not playing DE in a 4-3 team such as ours. We need an answer for when teams go max protect and that RDE must have speed to get around NFL LTs.

[Au165]

(04-17-2017, 09:34 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This will surely be the minority vote here, but I pass (or try to act interested and trade back to someone who really wants him) on Allen.  Here's why:  He isn't a true RDE and I don't think he can be at the NFL level.  He lacks the speed, length, and agility to play on the edge.  I think he was very successful in college when he rotated inside because he had massive talent around him and some speed demons rotating off the edge that teams had to focus on.  

He is a very talented player, don't get me wrong.  Stout at the point of attack, a good run-stuffing DE, but not a guy that will terrorize QBs off the edge.  If we want him because of what he can do on third downs, rotating inside, then you have to think of him more as a DT than a DE and they simply can't rank one that highly.

I like him, but more for a 3-4 team playing DE.  Not playing DE in a 4-3 team such as ours.  We need an answer for when teams go max protect and that RDE must have speed to get around NFL LTs.

If a team is running max protect then speed means very little, because your not running around a 6 man protection scheme. You have a HB who's job is to double working inside out and most likely with a TE on the other side the HB will provide support to the LT unless someone comes flying up the middle. If a team has 6 on 4 blocking numbers you don't really expect to get pressure, that is why what Geno can do up the middle is such a huge advantage.

I have said it multiple times, he had the same numbers as Michael Bennett had coming out but with way better production against better competition. He can be successful at a 3 or 5 technique, especially on a line like ours where he won't ever see a double team because of Geno and Carlos.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-17-2017, 10:01 AM)Au165 Wrote: If a team is running max protect then speed means very little, because your not running around a 6 man protection scheme. You have a HB who's job is to double working inside out and most likely with a TE on the other side the HB will provide support to the LT unless someone comes flying up the middle. If a team has 6 on 4 blocking numbers you don't really expect to get pressure, that is why what Geno can do up the middle is such a huge advantage.

I have said it multiple times, he had the same numbers as Michael Bennett had coming out but with way better production against better competition. He can be successful at a 3 or 5 technique, especially on a line like ours where he won't ever see a double team because of Geno and Carlos.

Disagree completely.  A speed rusher around the edge is critical to get pressure when only rushing four, regardless of the front being presented.  At this point, I think you just go contrarian to everything I post, which is fine.  Enjoy.  

[Au165]

(04-17-2017, 11:15 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Disagree completely.  A speed rusher around the edge is critical to get pressure when only rushing four, regardless of the front being presented.  At this point, I think you just go contrarian to everything I post, which is fine.  Enjoy.  

A "Speed Rusher" is simply a type of rusher but not a necessity in any sense. Dunlap is not a "Speed Rusher" and can get plenty of pressure, and could from either side. The techniques are far more important than overwhelming people with athleticism. Not contrarian, I simply think you look at things from a very simplified stand point.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-17-2017, 12:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: A "Speed Rusher" is simply a type of rusher but not a necessity in any sense. Dunlap is not a "Speed Rusher" and can get plenty of pressure, and could from either side. The techniques are far more important than overwhelming people with athleticism. Not contrarian, I simply think you look at things from a very simplified stand point.

Taco Charlton ran a 4.90 forty.  I didn't see anything on his tape that makes me think that was a fluke.  He just looks a step, well, slow.  I have no interest in him as our RDE.  Why?  Because if you don't have speed to get the edge, you better have outstanding power, bend, and inside moves to make the opposing tackle stay balanced and not key to your weakness.  

I see a RDE that has the speed to get around the edge as an absolute necessity for this team because we haven't had it for a long time.  I think David Pollack briefly provided some of that, but I want a guy that can dominate from that outside spot.  I don't see Allen as a perfect fit for our defense.  I think he could be a solid rotational guy that moves in to DT on pass rush situations, but I don't think he fits as well as a 4-3 RDE.  

As far as what technique is used, you first must have the speed at RDE for an NFL LT to have to be concerned so you may utilize an inside spin or swim move.  If you have average speed and length, I think one's inside move becomes less effective.  

Let's remember this conversation about Allen and see how he fares in the NFL.  

[Au165]

(04-17-2017, 12:27 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Taco Charlton ran a 4.90 forty.  I didn't see anything on his tape that makes me think that was a fluke.  He just looks a step, well, slow.  I have no interest in him as our RDE.  Why?  Because if you don't have speed to get the edge, you better have outstanding power, bend, and inside moves to make the opposing tackle stay balanced and not key to your weakness.  

I see a RDE that has the speed to get around the edge as an absolute necessity for this team because we haven't had it for a long time.  I think David Pollack briefly provided some of that, but I want a guy that can dominate from that outside spot.  I don't see Allen as a perfect fit for our defense.  I think he could be a solid rotational guy that moves in to DT on pass rush situations, but I don't think he fits as well as a 4-3 RDE.  

As far as what technique is used, you first must have the speed at RDE for an NFL LT to have to be concerned so you may utilize an inside spin or swim move.  If you have average speed and length, I think one's inside move becomes less effective.  

Let's remember this conversation about Allen and see how he fares in the NFL.  

Your obsession with speed is noted, and frankly will be disregarded. Short area burst has nothing to do with a 40 time. If you want to talk 10 second splits that is different, but not even a big deal. Joey Bosa's 4.88 compared to Charlton's 4.91 isn't the magic difference in future success. William Gholston had a bunch of success with a 4.98 40 time, how does he rush without speed! Robert Ayers and his 4.9 must be using magic to get to the QB. Of course the clone comparison height weight and so on Michael Bennet has somehow gotten 45.5 sacks with his 5 second 40. The reality is if everything is about sprinting up field to "run the loop" you are getting washed out by any reasonably good LT.

He could not pan out for a number of reasons, but using speed is simply a cop out answer.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-17-2017, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Your obsession with speed is noted, and frankly will be disregarded. Short area burst has nothing to do with a 40 time. If you want to talk 10 second splits that is different, but not even a big deal. Joey Bosa's 4.88 compared to Charlton's 4.91 isn't the magic difference in future success. William Gholston had a bunch of success with a 4.98 40 time, how does he rush without speed! Robert Ayers and his 4.9 must be using magic to get to the QB. Of course the clone comparison height weight and so on Michael Bennet has somehow gotten 45.5 sacks with his 5 second 40. The reality is if everything is about sprinting up field to "run the loop" you are getting washed out by any reasonably good LT.

He could not pan out for a number of reasons, but using speed is simply a cop out answer.

Doing some real damage to your argument dropping those names. 

Joey Bosa is a monster. He was 6'5" 269lbs and ran a 4.7. Jonathan Allen is 6'2" 286lbs and ran a 5.0. Bosa was an impact player as a true freshman. Charlton was finally a full time starter his senior year. 

Gholston has 10 sacks in 4 years. Topping out at 3 in a year. 

Ayers has never reached double digit sacks. He has 33 sacks in 8 years. Averaging a little over 4 sacks a year. 

Michael Bennett was an UDFA. Definitely has turned into a hell of a player. But with his college production and measureables he wasn't even deemed draftable. For as good as he has been. Double digit sacks once in his career. Playing with the legion of boom and a defense consistently one of the best in the league helps the guy for sure. 

Speed is definitely not everything. But it is a part of the equation. 

The success rate of 5.0sec 40 4-3 DEs is probably stupidly low. Probably low enough to make you question pulling the trigger on one in the top 10. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-17-2017, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Your obsession with speed is noted, and frankly will be disregarded. Short area burst has nothing to do with a 40 time. If you want to talk 10 second splits that is different, but not even a big deal. Joey Bosa's 4.88 compared to Charlton's 4.91 isn't the magic difference in future success. William Gholston had a bunch of success with a 4.98 40 time, how does he rush without speed! Robert Ayers and his 4.9 must be using magic to get to the QB. Of course the clone comparison height weight and so on Michael Bennet has somehow gotten 45.5 sacks with his 5 second 40. The reality is if everything is about sprinting up field to "run the loop" you are getting washed out by any reasonably good LT.

He could not pan out for a number of reasons, but using speed is simply a cop out answer.

Do you even read the post before picking out one word and responding?  I thought I provided a clear, yet concise, explanation that if one doesn't have outside speed it makes their inside game that much more difficult.  You cited guys that are massively strong and a great deal of their success comes from getting inside or a straight up bull-rush.  If you think Allen, with his shoulders and the massive level of talent around him at Bama, is one that can win that way, great.  I dont.
  

[Au165]

(04-17-2017, 11:39 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Doing some real damage to your argument dropping those names. 

Joey Bosa is a monster. He was 6'5" 269lbs and ran a 4.7. Jonathan Allen is 6'2" 286lbs and ran a 5.0. Bosa was an impact player as a true freshman. Charlton was finally a full time starter his senior year. 

Gholston has 10 sacks in 4 years. Topping out at 3 in a year. 

Ayers has never reached double digit sacks. He has 33 sacks in 8 years. Averaging a little over 4 sacks a year. 

Michael Bennett was an UDFA. Definitely has turned into a hell of a player. But with his college production and measureables he wasn't even deemed draftable. For as good as he has been. Double digit sacks once in his career. Playing with the legion of boom and a defense consistently one of the best in the league helps the guy for sure. 

Speed is definitely not everything. But it is a part of the equation. 

The success rate of 5.0sec 40 4-3 DEs is probably stupidly low. Probably low enough to make you question pulling the trigger on one in the top 10. 

Joey Bosa ran a 4.88 at the combine, the only numbers that can be fairly compared across years and players.

Charlton was very productive in that year. You can argue that when the light comes on it is on. Malik Hooker only had one year of production and people have him as a top 10 pick, which I don't know I see it and I am an OSU fan.

Ayers has been a good player for a long time, sacks is only part of the equation. When he was in NY on a good D line you saw what he was able to do. It is very similar to what I said about Allen, when he is on a team he can't be doubled he will succeed

Bennett was believed to be the same tweener Allen is now, but what he shows is a guy with those measurables can be successful at DE.

[Au165]

(04-18-2017, 08:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Do you even read the post before picking out one word and responding?  I thought I provided a clear, yet concise, explanation that if one doesn't have outside speed it makes their inside game that much more difficult.  You cited guys that are massively strong and a great deal of their success comes from getting inside or a straight up bull-rush.  If you think Allen, with his shoulders and the massive level of talent around him at Bama, is one that can win that way, great.  I dont.
  

You act as if all rushers have speed and power, most guys are either finesse rushers or power rushers. There are variations of moves within each group, but very few can do both at elite levels (think JJ Watt). I still don't get the constant harping on the shoulders, the only people who seem to be set on the shoulders being an issue are fans not teams. All the experts I have heard talk about it have said it's not really a big deal. No one has actually seen the medicals to make the call, but the way you talk you'd act like his shoulders are falling off his body.

In the end this whole argument is moot because he is probably going to a team before us to play 3 technique in a 4-3, maybe to the Jets to play as a DE if they trade Richardson.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-18-2017, 09:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: Joey Bosa ran a 4.88 at the combine, the only numbers that can be fairly compared across years and players.

Charlton was very productive in that year. You can argue that when the light comes on it is on. Malik Hooker only had one year of production and people have him as a top 10 pick, which I don't know I see it and I am an OSU fan.

Ayers has been a good player for a long time, sacks is only part of the equation. When he was in NY on a good D line you saw what he was able to do. It is very similar to what I said about Allen, when he is on a team he can't be doubled he will succeed

Bennett was believed to be the same tweener Allen is now, but what he shows is a guy with those measurables can be successful at DE.

Scouts owners and coaches go to pro days with stop watches in hand. Cant remember where I saw it. Think it was a Hobson article. They write the best 40 time they recorded on the players card that is used for the big board.

That is why i like nfldraftscout.com they are usually pretty good at having combine and pro day numbers.

If Allen would have ran a 4.7 at his pro day that 5.0 40 is out the window

[yang]

I'm no scout or expert but whenever I saw Allen play all I could do was drool imagining I'm in a Bengals uniform and knowing there was no way he would fall to 9. He played at a flat out insane level and was a destructive force on the field. If he is available you draft him and design your defense around him in my mind. It's really a no-brainer. You run to the podium.

[Whatever]

Allen may not be a speed rushing RDE, but he's a guy who will do a great job setting the edge and putting teams in 3rd and long so we can pin our ears back. With spread offenses dominating the college ranks, you see a lot of finesse LT's entering the league, and Allen's bull rush is a definite mismatch for those types of players.

When you shift him inside, however, Allen next to Atkins is a nightmare. Inside pressure affects QB's more and is much harder to avoid than outside pressure. When they can't step into their throws, QB's tend to miss high, which leads to turnover opportunities. With those two in the middle and Dunlap on one side, all the RDE has to do is stay in his rush lane to keep the QB from escaping out of the backside. Clark showed some potential as a 3rd down pass rusher last year.