Interesting article on Bengals on NFL.com

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-29-2017, 11:31 AM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe you and I have different definitions of the sugar huddle.  When I think of the sugar huddle....I'm thinking of how the Bengals used to run out like 13 players on the field, and then, when they saw the defensive alignment, they'd send either the WRs off the field, or the TEs....depending on what the defense shows.  What you are alluding to is legal.  Sorry for the confusion.

Don't apologize, as you probably have the correct definition and what I was referring to was just the huddle near the LOS that could have the ball snapped in about 3 seconds from and catch them with too many on the field.

The play I hated the most, and felt like the laughingstock of the league, was when Palmer would hard count and take a knee.  Sometimes, the defense would get back and the Bengals just gave up a down.  It made me want to vomit.  Not only would they throw away the free play bomb, but they would give one the opposite way!  It was like losing twice. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-29-2017, 02:53 PM)Wyche Wrote: From what I understand, the idea came to Sam after witnessing Renaldo Neamhia (SP?) come back from a post or go route gassed and saying he needed a second to catch his wind.  Wyche thought to himself that if a world class track athlete was gassed, imagine what the defenders would feel like if they couldn't substitute.  He then implemented his strategy at IU....and brought it to Cincy, where he and Coslet (another Walsh disciple) implemented it in their version of the Ohio River Offense.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/sam-wyche-remains-entertaining-and-opinionated-110413

Dead on...I think they used to call Renaldo "Skeets".

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-30-2017, 08:29 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on...I think they used to call Renaldo "Skeets".

I do believe you're right.

[Au165]

(06-30-2017, 08:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Chip tried to run a ridiculous number of plays per game and it had some success in college, but not really in the NFL.  I am speaking more about getting the opponent in a formation like Nickel and then pounding them with a TE, FB, and RB.  Sure, many nickel packages will be able to stop the run, but you get what I am saying.

I just like the creativity of the sugar and tryjng to bait the opponent in to switching personnel and catching them for an easy "too many men" penalty.  The best part of that is the free play, where you can take a deep shot with no fear of an INT.  

Kelly really wasn't that much faster than other teams doing it when you look at offensive plays per game. That said here is a quote from an article looking back at it. In the end defenses were so comfortable adjusting it wasn't that big a deal.

But defenses adjust, and by the end of 2015, Kelly’s opponents barely seemed affected by his tempo. As Belichick pointed out, the biggest benefit of fast tempo is that it takes play-calling away from defensive coordinators, putting the onus on defensive players to communicate and adjust on the fly. But, as other NFL offenses have increasingly used the no-huddle, defenses have gotten comfortable playing fast themselves, and can now communicate their complex schemes and adjustments with just a word or two.

Not sure how you catch them with a nickel  package and you have a FB on the field. A FB entering the game is one of the "tells" for base package. Trying to get personnel mismatches comes more from personnel  ability and positioning than trying to hope they don't adjust with you.

The patriots for example have a formation called empty ace patriot where they will have 12 personnel on the field but it's a shotgun spread formation. The beauty of this formation is that normally when you see 12 personnel your going to be in a base package on defense. For this formation though, they line up their 1 and 2 WR on the short side of the field out wide then have the HB split wide opposite and two TE's in the slot between the Tackle and HB. Why this formation is deadly is because of mismatches it creates. Let's assume this is against a man defense, in this case you have stacked their CB's to one side and now you have LB's in space against your TE's and HB all of which are better in space than LB's normally. If they stay Zone on the WR side you now have the #2 WR in the slot against a LB in zone and they are better equipped to find soft spots against a LB in coverage.

The thing is you have to have personnel's who skill set can be used in these types of ways. These kind of things are actually where the Patriots having multiple pass catching TE really paid off for them.

[Au165]

(06-29-2017, 11:31 AM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe you and I have different definitions of the sugar huddle.  When I think of the sugar huddle....I'm thinking of how the Bengals used to run out like 13 players on the field, and then, when they saw the defensive alignment, they'd send either the WRs off the field, or the TEs....depending on what the defense shows.  What you are alluding to is legal.  Sorry for the confusion.

This actually would cause the ref to stand over the ball and allow the defense to change. As soon as a new player enters the field it is considered a sub and the defense has a chance to match personnel.

[sandwedge]

(06-30-2017, 08:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Don't apologize, as you probably have the correct definition and what I was referring to was just the huddle near the LOS that could have the ball snapped in about 3 seconds from and catch them with too many on the field.

The play I hated the most, and felt like the laughingstock of the league, was when Palmer would hard count and take a knee.  Sometimes, the defense would get back and the Bengals just gave up a down.  It made me want to vomit.  Not only would they throw away the free play bomb, but they would give one the opposite way!  It was like losing twice. 

I was speaking more to letting the play clock run down and just getting the snap off. I get it when your playing ball control and it's late in the game and your running down the clock, but I have seen us doing this on the 1st drive of the game or 2nd half and we end up calling a time out. I'd love to see our offense huddle or just line up and snap the ball with more urgency. Your QB just standing there and letting the defense adjust is a waste of time IMO. One other thing I don't or rather didn't like is, when Hue did that stupid "starwars" formation. Why you having your LT run to the sideline and then run all the back to his spot? It never fooled anyone. 
I think we have the depth at WR to let AJ and whoever else take a break for a play or two if they get winded to go uptempo alot.

[Au165]

(06-30-2017, 11:51 AM)sandwedge Wrote: One other thing I don't or rather didn't like is, when Hue did that stupid "starwars" formation. Why you having your LT run to the sideline and then run all the back to his spot? It never fooled anyone. 

That whole concept is built around box count. When they spread the field if the count wasn't what they were looking for Dalton checked them back into a more traditional formation. What that does though is show you how the will handle that formation later and let you go in planning on running certain concepts. It was never about "fooling" anyone it was about seeing how they reacted to figure out how to attack. Most offensive coordinators approach each game as a full game chess match. You have to figure out how the defense will react to certain concepts and then plan on attacking what that opens up.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-30-2017, 09:24 AM)Au165 Wrote: This actually would cause the ref to stand over the ball and allow the defense to change. As soon as a new player enters the field it is considered a sub and the defense has a chance to match personnel.

Yes, it would.....and more than 11 in the huddle is now a penalty too.  Maybe I'm thinking of it wrong.  Maybe he had 10 in the huddle, then sent in the FB or TE or WR in from the sidelines once he saw what the defense was doing....my memory from 30 years ago as a 12 year old ain't what it used to be.

I've searched high and low about when this became a rule, but all I could find was this, on some message board....lulz


https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000211-sports-and-racing-nfl/73764250?slog=1

Quote:There's a rule...not sure where it's at but it has something to do with Sam Wyche who used to do it all the time until they made it a rule.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-30-2017, 09:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The thing is you have to have personnel's who skill set can be used in these types of ways. These kind of things are actually where the Patriots having multiple pass catching TE really paid off for them.

That was kind of my point.   Hewitt can line up split wide if they are in base because they see him as the F-back.  My favorite formation is two TE, two WR, and single back....I think the personnel we have in that package, assuming Uzo can pickup where he left off, is versatile as hell.

[HarleyDog]

I enjoyed reading this article and this whole thread. Lots of great posts in here and very informative.

[BenZoo2]

(06-30-2017, 08:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Don't apologize, as you probably have the correct definition and what I was referring to was just the huddle near the LOS that could have the ball snapped in about 3 seconds from and catch them with too many on the field.

The play I hated the most, and felt like the laughingstock of the league, was when Palmer would hard count and take a knee.  Sometimes, the defense would get back and the Bengals just gave up a down.  It made me want to vomit.  Not only would they throw away the free play bomb, but they would give one the opposite way!  It was like losing twice. 

I also thought the sugar huddle was when they were loosely huddled around the ball and boomer would check the defensive alignments. They play would be called based off that.

And that chicken take a knee shite drove me nuts to. What wasted opportunity. Aaron Rodgers takes s shot every time he gets that call. There were rumors also that Marvin didn't want Carson calling the timeouts, those were controlled from the sideline. I think Carson either didn't feel trusted by Marvin or didn't have confidence in Marvin and that was a big part in him wanting to leave


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