Franchise's Biggest Blunders

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-18-2017, 03:41 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Right, I agree it worked out for both parties. It wasn't so much that we lost Carson. It has more to do with the fact that the organization made him feel like it was in a hopeless situation. That's the blunder. Likely, it was several small blunders the organization did that made Carson want out. Carson was arguably the biggest name to demand a trade, but he wasn't the only one. See below

Bingo. Add Chad and TJ to that list, Dan wilkinson... Who else?  

Boomer, Lee Johnson (that one still cracks me up), pretty sure Blake was unhappy being benched....

[*ochocincos*]

(07-18-2017, 03:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It took Dre his 5th season to be any good. That's not how 17th overall picks are supposed to go. Lol... Glad he's okay now (presumably, who knows how he'll react to getting paid, he performed in his contract year only) but it still wasn't a good pick.

I really can't figure out Gio. I jump between thinking he's just an okay backup, and him being a good RB who simply is misused by this team. I still think he'd probably be a star if he played for Sean Payton or Belichick, but I don't know if that'd be just because of their systems. Either way, I think we can agree he's not as good of a RB as Bell. Admittedly a much nicer person, though.

You're looking at the 5 playoffs in a row wrongly, though, in my opinion at least. It's not a Palmer/Dalton things. Mike Zimmer came in 2008. The Bengals then went to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 seasons here. Even today Guenther is a Zimmer product using players Zimmer gathered, running a system made by Zimmer. Don't forget how bad the Bengals D was from '03-'07 under Lewis.

Yup, my argument wasn't that the Palmer trade was a blunder. Just who they selected with the picks.

Not many people thought Bell would be as good as he has been. I sure didn't. Bell's biggest issue entering the draft was he was really big. The weight loss really helped him become the RB he is today. But I'm not so sure Bell would have been the same RB in Cincy as he became in Pittsburgh because of potentially a different usage, less/different emphasis on strength/conditioning, etc.

The problem with Gio was he was drafted to be a tandem RB to BJGE, not a bellcow starter. In that role, he was drafted properly. But the Bengals really should have been looking for someone to replace BJGE completely, not just a COP guy. I expect Gio to be a nice complementary piece to Joe Mixon.

Regarding the playoffs, I get what you're saying in that perhaps that's not fair to Palmer because the defense played a huge part in the Dalton-led Bengals getting to the playoffs. But I view it as Dalton + Kirkpatrick + Bernard was about as good or even better than Palmer + [2011 2nd round draft pick]. Palmer just doesn't seem hands-down better than Dalton to me.

[*ochocincos*]

How could I forget selecting Jerome Simpson over DeSean Jackson?! ::vomit::

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-18-2017, 04:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How could I forget selecting Jerome Simpson over DeSean Jackson?! ::vomit::

Or Chris Perry over Steven Jackson....

[Bengal Dude]

(07-18-2017, 04:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: Or Chris Perry over Steven Jackson....

This is the one that still cracks me up. We wanted Jackson but decided that we could still get him if we traded down. The team that we trade with proceeds to take him. Talk about getting played.

[WeezyBengal]

(07-18-2017, 03:08 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Since the face of the franchise, the franchise QB, actually walked away from tens of millions of $$$ rather than play another down for this organization, I'd say yes. That is a huge blunder. 

Granted, it worked out for both parties but the point remains. How many players demand trades/threaten retirement and actively follow through? 

Thats where I stand with it. That entire thing was a complete mess and just shows you how inept this organization was/is. It doesnt have anything to do with who we got with the draft picks, how much better off we were, etc. Its just the fact that our franchise player wanted nothing to do with this organization and was willing to forfeit millions of dollars.

The Bengals were lucky that Hugh and the Raiders came through and saved the day with their ridiculous trade though.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-18-2017, 04:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Not many people thought Bell would be as good as he has been. I sure didn't. Bell's biggest issue entering the draft was he was really big. The weight loss really helped him become the RB he is today. But I'm not so sure Bell would have been the same RB in Cincy as he became in Pittsburgh because of potentially a different usage, less/different emphasis on strength/conditioning, etc.

The problem with Gio was he was drafted to be a tandem RB to BJGE, not a bellcow starter. In that role, he was drafted properly. But the Bengals really should have been looking for someone to replace BJGE completely, not just a COP guy. I expect Gio to be a nice complementary piece to Joe Mixon.

Regarding the playoffs, I get what you're saying in that perhaps that's not fair to Palmer because the defense played a huge part in the Dalton-led Bengals getting to the playoffs. But I view it as Dalton + Kirkpatrick + Bernard was about as good or even better than Palmer + [2011 2nd round draft pick]. Palmer just doesn't seem hands-down better than Dalton to me.

Meanwhile Hill came in at 233 and is now listed at 235 (is probably more). Amazing how that happens. Do you think Bell would have a much worse career on the Bengals, and Hill have a much better one on the Steelers?

- - - - - -

Replace BJGE? No way that was going to happen...


- - - - - -

Sure Palmer + 2nd rounder for Dalton + Kirkpatrick + Gio is most likely a net improvement or at least a wash, but wouldn't have been interesting to see what Palmer could have done with AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Tyler Eifert, Jermaine Gresham, and Zimmer's defense?


(Besides, with no Gio pick, they probably don't a luxury pick like Hunt in the 2nd round for 2013, and instead end up with Eddie Lacy to fill their RB need.)

[Shake n Blake]

(07-18-2017, 03:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But it's not like DK and Bernard have been terrible. They've been overall solid players with some bumps and bruises along the way.
The way I view it is that if Palmer didn't demand a trade and sit out, the Bengals wouldn't have drafted Dalton and also not have received those picks.
Keeping Palmer, IMO, would likely not have resulted in any better situation for the Bengals. In fact, it could have been worse than five playoff appearances in a row, as Palmer only had two from 2004 through 2010 (2005, 2009).

If you're going to say there was a blunder, it was the selections of DK and/or Bernard over some better players, not the Palmer trade itself.

Agreed. I wanted Palmer gone before he asked for a trade. As good as he is, I wasn't a believer in his mental makeup. He had the "look" of a leader but the mentality of a soft rich boy from California...which is what he was. Plus he's never stopped with the inexplicable INTs and fumbles during his career.

So trading him for a couple decent players and netting Dalton as a replacement was a huge win in my opinion. I'm not arguing against what LL is saying. Just saying that I don't see that exchange as a blunder.

(07-18-2017, 04:09 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly - Pickens, Dillon, Spikes, TJ, Johnson, Palmer, Joseph all were disgruntled here. That speaks volumes to the organization quality. They can't all just be loose canons.

Add in Chad. Chad asked for a trade in 2008 because he wanted defensive help and we ignored that side in free agency. People think Chad was a goofball, but he wanted to win as much as anyone, and his reasoning had merit.

[*bengalfan74*]

Just about everything has been covered but anyways:

Letting Walsh go and keeping Johnson

Refusing all of Saints draft picks for Akili Smith - who ?

Pushing Boomer out for Klingler

Pushing Wyche out for Shula

Keeping Shula way to long

And speaking of way to long, hanging on to marginal players way to long because they're someone's pet project.

The nepotism in the F.O.

Not hiring a real GM

Keeping Marvin way to long

Not building a practice facility

Letting Whit walk

I'll try and add more later

[*Nately120*]

(07-18-2017, 07:59 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A lot of coaching decisions are tempting... no Walsh, no Wyche, keeping Lewis which squandered having a SB-talent team.

I still can't imagine the answer being anything but the refusal to trade with the Saints being the answer, though. Their entire set of 1999 picks, their 1st round pick in 2000 and 2001, and their 2nd round pick in 2002.

Turned down three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks (plus more) in order to draft Akili Smith. Is there anything worse than that? The holocaust.... maybe.

Not changing our approach to the gm role after that, too. 

[clevelandsdad]

I think my choice might be the most overlooked blunder in Bengals history:

Andy's thumb-breaking INT against the Steelers in 2015.

Literally cost us a 1 seed, a likely matchup with KC in the divisional round, and a very good shot at winning the Super Bowl. I'm still convinced we were the best team in the league that year, and Carolina would have stood no chance against us in the Super Bowl.

But Andy throws a bonehead pick in the red zone, then goes for the tackle which put him out for the season. Classic.

[OBX Bengal]

The Bengals biggest blunder was passing on Tom Brady and drafting Curtis Keaton in the fourth round of the 2000 NFL draft.

[*jason*]

Didn't they essentially pay Lavernius Coles the same amount they didn't want to give to TJ?

[Pat5775]

(07-18-2017, 08:40 PM)jason Wrote: Didn't they essentially pay Lavernius Coles the same amount they didn't want to give to TJ?

Pretty much, but I don't think TJ had any real intentions on coming back 

[Shake n Blake]

(07-18-2017, 08:40 PM)jason Wrote: Didn't they essentially pay Lavernius Coles the same amount they didn't want to give to TJ?

There was a difference of 1 million per. They essentially gave Housh's contract to Coles.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-18-2017, 05:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure Palmer + 2nd rounder for Dalton + Kirkpatrick + Gio is most likely a net improvement or at least a wash, but wouldn't have been interesting to see what Palmer could have done with AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Tyler Eifert, Jermaine Gresham, and Zimmer's defense?

Wouldn't that be similar to what he's done with Larry Fitzgerald, John Brown, David Johnson, Michael Floyd, JJ Nelson, Jermaine Gresham and that defense in AZ? The numbers between Dalton and Palmer are remarkably similar over the last 4 years (during Palmer's AZ stint):

Palmer
92.0 passer rating
14,804 pass yards
96 TDs to 50 INTs

Dalton
91.7 passer rating
15,147 pass yards
95 TDs to 52 INTs

Nevermind that Dalton is able to run when needed or escape the pocket and get yards (678 yards and 13 TDs rushing - compared to 90 yards and 1 TD for Palmer) which has been a handy trait lately. Honestly, I'd say the weapons are a wash and Palmer has had the better coach, so I don't see why people think he'd somehow do better in Andy's situation.

[ElkValleyBengal]

One blunder I haven't seen mentioned is the failure to score from the 49er three yard line with first and goal to go in the third quarter of Super Bowl 16, especially after Pete Johnson made it to the half-yard line on first down. Ultimately I think the game was lost after that happened.

[WeezyBengal]

(07-18-2017, 07:33 PM)clevelandsdad Wrote: I think my choice might be the most overlooked blunder in Bengals history:

Andy's thumb-breaking INT against the Steelers in 2015.

Literally cost us a 1 seed, a likely matchup with KC in the divisional round, and a very good shot at winning the Super Bowl. I'm still convinced we were the best team in the league that year, and Carolina would have stood no chance against us in the Super Bowl.

But Andy throws a bonehead pick in the red zone, then goes for the tackle which put him out for the season. Classic.

Cincinnati sports, man. Reminds me of 2012 when Johnny Cueto screwed up his back in the divisional round vs the Giants. They went on to win the world series that year. 

[Shake n Blake]

(07-19-2017, 02:41 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Cincinnati sports, man. Reminds me of 2012 when Johnny Cueto screwed up his back in the divisional round vs the Giants. They went on to win the world series that year. 

...went on to lose a 2-0 series lead in a best of 5. Was 1 inning away from a sweep.

Only in Cincy, I swear.

[*Nately120*]

(07-19-2017, 01:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Wouldn't that be similar to what he's done with Larry Fitzgerald, John Brown, David Johnson, Michael Floyd, JJ Nelson, Jermaine Gresham and that defense in AZ? The numbers between Dalton and Palmer are remarkably similar over the last 4 years (during Palmer's AZ stint):

Palmer
92.0 passer rating
14,804 pass yards
96 TDs to 50 INTs

Dalton
91.7 passer rating
15,147 pass yards
95 TDs to 52 INTs

Nevermind that Dalton is able to run when needed or escape the pocket and get yards (678 yards and 13 TDs rushing - compared to 90 yards and 1 TD for Palmer) which has been a handy trait lately. Honestly, I'd say the weapons are a wash and Palmer has had the better coach, so I don't see why people think he'd somehow do better in Andy's situation.

The whole Palmer/Dalton thing has been a bit of an either/or situation.  I will give Palmer the nod in the sense that he has a winning record against the biggest division foe he has in the Seahawks...but who knows...that's Marvin right?  Marvin can't beat the Steelers, win in prime-time, or win in the playoffs because Palmer did those things once he got away from Marvin.

That's the reason for the pessimism around here; we might never get to see what player(s) XY & Z can do without Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis capping their success.  So it goes.