Skill players surrounding Andy

[*Synric*]

(07-22-2017, 03:35 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: No you did not.   In your mind, 'you made a great post'  - I bet it feels good 

Once again - The Bengals, due to Daltons mediocrity - have had to expend a very high # of their #1 and #2 picks on skill players - to surround him with tremendous talent and weapons. 

Despite this, he is still a 15th-20th ranked QB in the NFL by every single media outlet/member/former player/former coach/analyst. 

But, in Bengals LaLa Land, everyone else is wrong, and if you plug your ears and hum loud enough, you can fake that you are right and seek affirmation from other deluded fans

Lol

Wasn't he ranked the 35th best player in the entire league in 2015? According to the players...

Aight done feeding the troll lol. I just thought he needed the practice.

[OrangeLacroix]

(07-22-2017, 03:39 PM)Synric Wrote: Wasn't he ranked the 35th best player in the entire league in 2015? According to the players...

Aight done feeding the troll lol. I just thought he needed the practice.

Yeah and Palmer, Revis, Allen Robinson and Doug Martin were all listed way ahead of him.

Newest list based of 2016. Dalton isn't even top 100

Lol

[*Synric*]

(07-22-2017, 03:56 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Yeah and Palmer, Revis, Allen Robinson and Doug Martin were all listed way ahead of him.

Newest list based of 2016. Dalton isn't even top 100

Lol

So me and you have now come full circle. Youre using the same argument against the top 100 list as I did against your QB lists. Lol Guess If I'm a delusional Cincy fan that makes you a hypocrite lol.

I'm done here lol.

[OrangeLacroix]

(07-22-2017, 04:14 PM)Synric Wrote: So me and you have now come full circle. Youre using the same argument against the top 100 list as I did against your QB lists. Lol Guess If I'm a delusional Cincy fan that makes you a hypocrite lol.

No no. You're confused, not surprised

I'm using 6 separate 2017 ranking of qbs and Dalton is 15-20 in each

Try and keep up. You're using one ranking from 2 years ago. The same one you discredited earlier. Hahahah

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-22-2017, 03:35 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Once again - The Bengals, due to Daltons mediocrity - have had to expend a very high # of their #1 and #2 picks on skill players - to surround him with tremendous talent and weapons. 

Despite this, he is still a 15th-20th ranked QB in the NFL by every single media outlet/member/former player/former coach/analyst. 

But, in Bengals LaLa Land, everyone else is wrong, and if you plug your ears and hum loud enough, you can fake that you are right and seek affirmation from other deluded fans.

The truth is, every team spends lots of picks trying to surround their QB with talent. It's an offensive minded league. 

Other truth is, by comparison on the field, he's about 14th...i'd say anywhere from 10-14 when you break it down from '11-'16, '13-'16 and '15-'16. 

All QBs who qualify in these time frames.
'11-'16 (min 1800 pass attempts)
starts- 3rd
comp-10th
att -9th
cmp%-12th 
yds- 10th
tds- 9th
ints-15th (least amount)
rate-13th

'13-'16 (min 1200 pass attempts)
starts-3rd
comp-10th
att -11th
cmp%-12th
yds- 10th
tds- 14th
ints-16th (least amount)
rate-14th

'15-'16 (min 600 pass attempts)
starts-15th
comp-19th
att -21st
cmp%-10th
yds- 16th
tds- 18th
ints- 5th (least amount)
rate- 7th

[Shake n Blake]

(07-22-2017, 03:35 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: No you did not.   In your mind, 'you made a great post'  - I bet it feels good 

Once again - The Bengals, due to Daltons mediocrity - have had to expend a very high # of their #1 and #2 picks on skill players - to surround him with tremendous talent and weapons. 

Despite this, he is still a 15th-20th ranked QB in the NFL by every single media outlet/member/former player/former coach/analyst. 

But, in Bengals LaLa Land, everyone else is wrong, and if you plug your ears and hum loud enough, you can fake that you are right and seek affirmation from other deluded fans

Lol

Quite clearly you're an alt having a little fun (and I've known for awhile), but I'll keep playing.

Re-read my post and address some of the points. 

1. Why are you only looking at "draft picks invested"? You do realize that draft picks aren't the only assets a team can invest...right? The most important asset in football is arguably cap space. Why aren't you considering the FAT contracts being handed out to guys like Antonio Brown, Marvin Jones and many others? By your logic, the Lions lost nothing by investing 1/20th of their cap space on one player. By your logic, the Seahawks trading for Jimmy Graham doesn't count because they didn't technically draft him. Same with the Pats trading for Brandin Cooks, etc. 

TL;DR - Why are you only considering draft picks?

2. Until you make a list of teams - with the draft picks, trades and cap space invested to surround their QB with weapons...your post proves zilch because we have no basis for comparison. Just your opinion (which I'm sure is totally unbiased).

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-22-2017, 03:35 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: No you did not.   In your mind, 'you made a great post'  - I bet it feels good 

Once again - The Bengals, due to Daltons mediocrity - have had to expend a very high # of their #1 and #2 picks on skill players - to surround him with tremendous talent and weapons. 

Despite this, he is still a 15th-20th ranked QB in the NFL by every single media outlet/member/former player/former coach/analyst. 

But, in Bengals LaLa Land, everyone else is wrong, and if you plug your ears and hum loud enough, you can fake that you are right and seek affirmation from other deluded fans

Lol

What the hell ever. This is a laugher right here.

You must be a Stooler fan. Dalton played great last year considering the O-line play and lack of weapons due to injury.

In 2015 he was pushing for Offensive MVP of the NFL behind only Cam and Brady before the thumb injury.

Sucks being a Bengal fan enough with our crazy bad luck, don't need trolls rubbing it in and tearing down our franchise QB
that has done all he had ever been asked of and his numbers back him up.

Shake provides them, you don't and you are a joke.

[Gohards]

(07-22-2017, 03:56 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Yeah and Palmer, Revis, Allen Robinson and Doug Martin were all listed way ahead of him.

Newest list based of 2016. Dalton isn't even top 100

Lol

So if Dalton isn't the answer, what, in your opinion should we do with the QB situation?

[OrangeLacroix]

(07-23-2017, 11:42 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Quite clearly you're an alt having a little fun (and I've known for awhile), but I'll keep playing.

Re-read my post and address some of the points. 

1. Why are you only looking at "draft picks invested"? You do realize that draft picks aren't the only assets a team can invest...right? The most important asset in football is arguably cap space. Why aren't you considering the FAT contracts being handed out to guys like Antonio Brown, Marvin Jones and many others? By your logic, the Lions lost nothing by investing 1/20th of their cap space on one player. By your logic, the Seahawks trading for Jimmy Graham doesn't count because they didn't technically draft him. Same with the Pats trading for Brandin Cooks, etc. 

TL;DR - Why are you only considering draft picks?

2. Until you make a list of teams - with the draft picks, trades and cap space invested to surround their QB with weapons...your post proves zilch because we have no basis for comparison. Just your opinion (which I'm sure is totally unbiased).

If CAP space is the most important  asset, and the Bengals always have a ton of it, yet they never acquire any top FAs, how does that work?   I will wait for you to explain how cap space helps the bengals in Free Agency. 

The Pats last took a skill player in the 1st round in 20006  -  Maroney

Steelers - one in the last decade - 2008   Mendenhall 

Ravens - 1 skill player 1st round pick in the last 12 years - Perriman

Broncos - 0 1st round skill players taken in the last 7 years. 

Falcons - 1 in the last decade - Julio

Seattle has not spent a 1st rounder on a skill player since Jeremy Stevens in 2002 - Lol

In the last 8 years  - the bengals have spent 4 1st rounders on skill -  AJ, Ross, Gresh and Eifert. 

Lol

[Shake n Blake]

(07-23-2017, 08:51 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: If CAP space is the most important  asset, and the Bengals always have a ton of it, yet they never acquire any top FAs, how does that work?   I will wait for you to explain how cap space helps the bengals in Free Agency. 

The Pats last took a skill player in the 1st round in 20006  -  Maroney

Steelers - one in the last decade - 2008   Mendenhall 

Ravens - 1 skill player 1st round pick in the last 12 years - Perriman

Broncos - 0 1st round skill players taken in the last 7 years. 

Falcons - 1 in the last decade - Julio

Seattle has not spent a 1st rounder on a skill player since Jeremy Stevens in 2002 - Lol

In the last 8 years  - the bengals have spent 4 1st rounders on skill -  AJ, Ross, Gresh and Eifert. 

Lol

When did I say that cap space helps the Bengals in free agency?   I'm saying that they focus on filling needs via the draft, whereas some of these teams fill these skill position needs via trades and free agency. For example, using a team you listed:

The Patriots: They haven't even had a 1st round pick in 4 of those 11 years. Although they haven't taken a skill position offensive player via the draft, they have picked them up in other ways. Just in the time frame you used:

Traded for Randy Moss
*Traded for (and later signed back) LeGarrette Blount
Traded for Wes Welker
*Traded for Brandin Cooks (spent a 1st rounder here)
*Traded for Chad Johnson
*Traded for Tim Wright
*Traded for Martellus Bennett
*Traded for Dwayne Allen
Signed Deion Branch (the 2nd time around)
*Signed Brandon Lloyd 
*Signed Brandon LaFell
*Signed Danny Amendola
*Signed Dion Lewis
*Signed Scott Chandler
*Signed Chris Hogan as a restricted FA from Buffalo
*Claimed Michael Floyd off waivers
*Signed Mike Gillislee
*Signed Rex Burkhead
*Signed Andrew Hawkins
--------------------------------------------
All of these guys ranged from productive role players to studs elsewhere. The ones with an asterisk are all moves they've made since Dalton was drafted. Now compare that list to the list of skill position players the Bengals have signed (or traded for) since Dalton was drafted that were somewhat productive elsewhere:

Signed Benny Green-Ellis
Signed Dane Sanzenbacher 
Signed Greg Little
Signed Brandon Tate
Signed Brandon LaFell
Signed Alex Smith

Signings (during Dalton era)
Bengals: 6
Patriots: 10

Trades (again...during Dalton era)
Bengals: 0
Patriots: 6

Also, you can see there's a difference in the quality of the players signed/traded for. 

This is the best I can do to spell it out for you. The Bengals use the draft for pretty much everything...including skill position offense (and sometimes let those players walk...only to draft yet another player to fill the void), while teams like New England take much more advantage of Free Agency and Trades while using their picks to trade around or draft defense and lines. 

Hard to argue against New England's (or Seattle's, etc) method, but we aren't taking skill position guys "cuz Dalton sucks"...we draft skill position players because we don't do trades or free agency much. We also tend to let some players walk when they get expensive. Understand now?   :andy:

[Essex Johnson]

(07-23-2017, 11:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When did I say that cap space helps the Bengals in free agency?   I'm saying that they focus on filling needs via the draft, whereas some of these teams fill these skill position needs via trades and free agency. For example, using a team you listed:

The Patriots: They haven't even had a 1st round pick in 4 of those 11 years. Although they haven't taken a skill position offensive player via the draft, they have picked them up in other ways. Just in the time frame you used:

Traded for Randy Moss
*Traded for (and later signed back) LeGarrette Blount
Traded for Wes Welker
*Traded for Brandin Cooks (spent a 1st rounder here)
*Traded for Chad Johnson
*Traded for Tim Wright
*Traded for Martellus Bennett
*Traded for Dwayne Allen
Signed Deion Branch (the 2nd time around)
*Signed Brandon Lloyd 
*Signed Brandon LaFell
*Signed Danny Amendola
*Signed Dion Lewis
*Signed Scott Chandler
*Signed Chris Hogan as a restricted FA from Buffalo
*Claimed Michael Floyd off waivers
*Signed Mike Gillislee
*Signed Rex Burkhead
*Signed Andrew Hawkins
--------------------------------------------
All of these guys ranged from productive role players to studs elsewhere. The ones with an asterisk are all moves they've made since Dalton was drafted. Now compare that list to the list of skill position players the Bengals have signed (or traded for) since Dalton was drafted that were somewhat productive elsewhere:

Signed Benny Green-Ellis
Signed Dane Sanzenbacher 
Signed Greg Little
Signed Brandon Tate
Signed Brandon LaFell
Signed Alex Smith

Signings (during Dalton era)
Bengals: 6
Patriots: 10

Trades (again...during Dalton era)
Bengals: 0
Patriots: 6

Also, you can see there's a difference in the quality of the players signed/traded for. 

This is the best I can do to spell it out for you. The Bengals use the draft for pretty much everything...including skill position offense (and sometimes let those players walk...only to draft yet another player to fill the void), while teams like New England take much more advantage of Free Agency and Trades while using their picks to trade around or draft defense and lines. 

Hard to argue against New England's (or Seattle's, etc) method, but we aren't taking skill position guys "cuz Dalton sucks"...we draft skill position players because we don't do trades or free agency much. We also tend to let some players walk when they get expensive. Understand now?   :andy:

What you feed him (rational knowledge) is not going to matter.. he is a troll

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-19-2017, 06:09 PM)Gohards Wrote: you can give him all the skill players you want, but if he has no time for the play to develop, it means nothing.

Not true at all.  Now that he has weapons back (AJ, Eifert) and a few new toys (Ross, Mixon) that can generate separation quickly, he doesn't have to hold on to the ball as long waiting for a play to develop.  This will absolutely help protect him.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-21-2017, 08:44 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Lol.  I love delusional Cincy Fans.  There are SO many.  

Fan is short for fanatic..so that begs the question....Why are you on here?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-22-2017, 12:26 PM)Synric Wrote: In 2011 he was saying Josh Freeman was elite lollol.

You think these guys judgements are an better in 2017?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-23-2017, 05:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: What the hell ever. This is a laugher right here.

You must be a Stooler fan. Dalton played great last year considering the O-line play and lack of weapons due to injury.

In 2015 he was pushing for Offensive MVP of the NFL behind only Cam and Brady before the thumb injury.

Sucks being a Bengal fan enough with our crazy bad luck, don't need trolls rubbing it in and tearing down our franchise QB
that has done all he had ever been asked of and his numbers back him up.

Shake provides them, you don't and you are a joke.

Dalton could win over the orange masterbater (look up the name in Canada...that's why the Buick LaCrosse didn't sell well there  ) by simply raping and paying off some coeds.  Apparently, that is the only thing that makes one above average because piggy seems to fold like a wet paper towel when he loses ONE weapon...

(Ducks almighty Banhammer as it twirls over this thread)

[WeezyBengal]

You can have the best skill players in the world but if your offensive line cant block then its pointless.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-24-2017, 08:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dalton could win over the orange masterbater (look up the name in Canada...that's why the Buick LaCrosse didn't sell well there  ) by simply raping and paying off some coeds.  Apparently, that is the only thing that makes one above average because piggy seems to fold like a wet paper towel when he loses ONE weapon...

(Ducks almighty Banhammer as it twirls over this thread)

Dude likes his cheetos

(07-24-2017, 12:05 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You can have the best skill players in the world but if your offensive line cant block then its pointless.

True but our Offensive Line might be better than last year especially in the run game and adding players like Ross and Mixon
only helps out Dalton. He is already great at getting out the ball quickly, 2nd best in the NFL last i checked. Ogbuehi is the only
guy giving Lawson a run for his money this Offseason according to Lap.

Og has buffed up big time and has been working his ass off getting strong and getting his technique down.

Again we will see on this but even at our biggest weakness that everybody thinks is a weakness we have reasons to be optimistic.

[kevin]

(07-19-2017, 11:30 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: You are just assuming that these picks have played to their draft level and have stayed healthy, we know that is not true... 

Hill: 1 solid year, 2 bad years
Gio: solid but hurt and had rough year last year
Mixon and Ross: Yet to play
Eifert: more game hurt than played
Boyd: good start for 1 year

Now take our best year so far with Andy 2015, Eifert and AJ healthy playing, Gio solid.. we are heading towards division possible home field advantage then Andy gets hurt...  so we could say if Andy just could have stayed healthy finally with a team playing healthy we were looking awesome.

In a Mock Practice Fantasy Draft I took all Bengals for the heck of it.  I found it was very easy.  If you get AJ Green, the rest are very easy, in fact you have to draft players not rated all that high.   There are teams it couldn't be done with too many players going in first couple rounds.

Now I think this could be a good Offense, but most National Sports Media People are not all that excited or amazed by Hill, Gio, Mixon, Eifert, LaFell, Boyd, Ross, and even Dalton as we Bengals Fans are.  It is still an AJ Green ONE TRICK PONY that Defenses can Double or Triple Team AJ, until others step up and prove themselves.  I say this because it's what always happens in Play-Off losses. The Good Play-Off Team doubles down on AJ keeping him bottled up, and the others never step up and burn these keying on AJ formations.  An AJ ONLY Offense will NEVER win a Play-Off Game.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-25-2017, 01:54 AM)kevin Wrote: In a Mock Practice Fantasy Draft I took all Bengals for the heck of it.  I found it was very easy.  If you get AJ Green, the rest are very easy, in fact you have to draft players not rated all that high.   There are teams it couldn't be done with too many players going in first couple rounds.

Now I think this could be a good Offense, but most National Sports Media People are not all that excited or amazed by Hill, Gio, Mixon, Eifert, LaFell, Boyd, Ross, and even Dalton as we Bengals Fans are.  It is still an AJ Green ONE TRICK PONY that Defenses can Double or Triple Team AJ, until others step up and prove themselves.  I say this because it's what always happens in Play-Off losses. The Good Play-Off Team doubles down on AJ keeping him bottled up, and the others never step up and burn these keying on AJ formations.  An AJ ONLY Offense will NEVER win a Play-Off Game.

Well, we have seen what a healthy Tyler Eifert can mean to this offense, especially in the Red Zone.  I think we saw a nice improvement in Cody Core in his limited opportunities and looks to be a steal in the 6th round.  Uzomah has also flashed, but needs to prove he can stay healthy.  Tyler Boyd had a solid rookie season.  Gio is hot and cold, but when teams have to defend him in space, he presents real mismatches.

The addition of Ross opposite AJ Green is the missing piece that this offense hasn't had since Chris Henry.  Ross is far more than just a vertical threat, but his mere presence changes the way teams will defend the Bengals.  The last time we had a 1400 yard rusher was when we had Henry taking the top off the defense.

I have said it before:

AJ is the new Chad

Tyler Boyd could be the new Housh

Ross could be the new Henry.

What has me so excited is we never had a great TE with those teams, and we have one in Eifert, and maybe another in Uzomah.

We also didn't have a top 5 defense, which this unit absolutely has the chance to become.  

[Shake n Blake]

(07-25-2017, 08:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Well, we have seen what a healthy Tyler Eifert can mean to this offense, especially in the Red Zone.  I think we saw a nice improvement in Cody Core in his limited opportunities and looks to be a steal in the 6th round.  Uzomah has also flashed, but needs to prove he can stay healthy.  Tyler Boyd had a solid rookie season.  Gio is hot and cold, but when teams have to defend him in space, he presents real mismatches.

The addition of Ross opposite AJ Green is the missing piece that this offense hasn't had since Chris Henry.  Ross is far more than just a vertical threat, but his mere presence changes the way teams will defend the Bengals.  The last time we had a 1400 yard rusher was when we had Henry taking the top off the defense.

I have said it before:

AJ is the new Chad

Tyler Boyd could be the new Housh

Ross could be the new Henry.

What has me so excited is we never had a great TE with those teams, and we have one in Eifert, and maybe another in Uzomah.

We also didn't have a top 5 defense, which this unit absolutely has the chance to become.  

Good points about the affect of a 2nd vertical threat (Chad and Green could both get deep too, but it's the 2nd deep threat that really opens things). That said, I don't see Boyd as a new Housh. We've had 3 "new Housh's" since the old Housh and none were nearly as good as the original. I do think Ross will be far better than Henry...who was really a one-trick-pony and not very productive.

A lot of it comes down to the line, but like you said, maybe the presence of a guy like Ross will help open things up.