Today's Enquirer Article

[WhoDeyWho]

The discussion was on why the Bengals have been getting blown out in second halves of the 4 playoff games and I found these statistics to be interesting:

Quote:At halftime, the Bengals trailed by three points or less twice, led by three against San Diego and were within a touchdown in the first Houston game. Yet, in the third quarters of the playoff games, they called 32 passes to 17 runs. Last year against Indianapolis, Hue Jackson passed nine times and ran four. Whether turning back to the running game serves as the answer or the imbalance can be attributed to a general freak out, clearly an adjustment must be made to sustain drives coming out of halftime.

Quote:In 24 second-half possessions, the Bengals have turned it over eight times, or 33.3 percent of the time. That's astounding. Conversely, the defense has forced exactly zero turnovers in 22 second-half possessions by Houston, San Diego and Indianapolis.

Quote:A total of 17 NFL teams have played at least two playoff games in the last four years. Of those, the second-half stats prove how dreadful the Bengals have been after halftime compared to the rest. Cincinnati ranks dead last among those teams in the following offensive categories:

Yards per play: 4.26
First down percentage: 23.8 percent
Touchdowns per game: 0
Percentage of pass plays: 77 percent (tied w/ Detroit)
Worst passer rating in second half of playoff games last four years (min 20 attempts)

Andy Dalton, Cincinnati: 43.1
T.J. Yates, Houston: 54.2
Matt Stafford, Detroit: 67.5
Matt Ryan, Atlanta: 69.4
Andrew Luck, Indianapolis: 71.3
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh: 81.8
Bengals' average yards allowed per rush last four years

Regular season: 4.07
Playoffs: 4.72

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/07/28/why-have-bengals-been-battered-second-half--playoff-games/30731653/

I've always said it would be helpful if the vaunted defense that seems to be the reason we make the playoffs every year would be able to generate turnovers, which are critical in playoff games.  Especially given how bad we have been in turning the ball over ourselves.  Also, why have we been so reliant on the passing game if they don't trust Dalton?  Is it because they've trusted the running game even less?  

[*SHRacerX*]

"the defense has forced exactly zero turnovers in 22 second-half possessions by Houston, San Diego and Indianapolis."

This to me is the second biggest issue. How can you not even luck in to one turnover? The Bengals always seem to rush four down lineman against max protection and get zero pressure. They simply MUST have a plan against max protect offenses that could be more successful.

The biggest issue to me is that the Bengals seem to think the finish line is the end of the regular season. By this, I mean that the players are worn down or injured. Sure, all teams have injuries, but the Bengals lack of rotation down the stretch seems to leave their front line players flat. It is amazing how much slower the defense looks than games early in the season. All I can point to is a lack of rotation and potentially poor nutrition.

[djs7685]

Turnovers or not, the defense has done it's job in a couple of the games as far as keeping points off the board and holding the offense to short drives in a lot of cases.

The offense can't help but to turn the ball over, can't score, and can't generate sustained drives on a consistent basis.

I think there's clearly a reason this team has been drafting starters on the offensive side in the higher rounds at a rapid rate and most defensive picks have been for depth and project players for the future.

Though neither side of the ball has been extremely impressive and dominating, bright spots from either side have seemingly come in the first half of most of the games, other than an exception or two of course. I think a lot of this has to go on the coaching staff and the entire team as they've looked unprepared in the second half of almost every game. The team hasn't deserved to win a playoff game with the way they've played, no doubt, but there is more blame to place in certain places than others.

Of course, there are those like the OP that can't help themselves but just scream from the mountaintop about the defense not generating turnovers while usually crying that others aren't being fair for placing blame elsewhere. Meh, it is what it is. Some people can't help from being biased when speaking of certain topics.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-28-2015, 09:45 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The discussion was on why the Bengals have been getting blown out in second halves of the 4 playoff games and I found these statistics to be interesting:




http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/07/28/why-have-bengals-been-battered-second-half--playoff-games/30731653/

I've always said it would be helpful if the vaunted defense that seems to be the reason we make the playoffs every year would be able to generate turnovers, which are critical in playoff games.  Especially given how bad we have been in turning the ball over ourselves.  Also, why have we been so reliant on the passing game if they don't trust Dalton?  Is it because they've trusted the running game even less?  

I think part of it is that they didn't trust the run game enough, even though it was working against SD. The run game was more established last year, but with the lack of WR talent, it was almost a no-brainer that it would be wise to focus on defending the run game and force the pass game to take shape.

That leads into my thought that the Bengal OCs the past four years have tried to outsmart the opposition by doing what they felt wasn't expected. If the Bengals are leading at the half, the expectation would be that they would run more in the second half. I definitely noticed that Gruden was guilty of trying to outsmart the opposition by calling pass plays when the expectation is to run (e.g. throwing a 20 yard pass instead of running on 3rd and 2).

I'm hopeful this year that with the return of MLJ and Eifert along with the additions of Moore, Alford, and Kroft, our pass game will be better and open up the run game more. I'll hold off judgement on Jackson's playoff playcalling if/when the Bengals have more legit pass catchers healthy come the playoffs.

[M.W.]

(07-28-2015, 10:32 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I think part of it is that they didn't trust the run game enough, even though it was working against SD. The run game was more established last year, but with the lack of WR talent, it was almost a no-brainer that it would be wise to focus on defending the run game and force the pass game to take shape.

That leads into my thought that the Bengal OCs the past four years have tried to outsmart the opposition by doing what they felt wasn't expected. If the Bengals are leading at the half, the expectation would be that they would run more in the second half. I definitely noticed that Gruden was guilty of trying to outsmart the opposition by calling pass plays when the expectation is to run (e.g. throwing a 20 yard pass instead of running on 3rd and 2).

I'm hopeful this year that with the return of MLJ and Eifert along with the additions of Moore, Alford, and Kroft, our pass game will be better and open up the run game more. I'll hold off judgement on Jackson's playoff playcalling if/when the Bengals have more legit pass catchers healthy come the playoffs.

I agree with you.

Last year the receiving core was completely decimated so, if I remember correctly, the box was stacked because the defense didn't fear Dalton and his 3rd string receivers.

[Stewy]

(07-28-2015, 10:37 AM)M.W. Wrote: I agree with you.

Last year the receiving core was completely decimated so, if I remember correctly, the box was stacked because the defense didn't fear Dalton and his 3rd string receivers.

3rd String?  We had two PS guys and a running back playing receiver......does that even constitute as a string?

[jj22]

Marv and co has never been known for their half time adjustments. Playoff and Superbowl winning teams have coaches who can make those adjustments.

[fredtoast]

In 24 second-half possessions, the Bengals have turned it over eight times, or 33.3 percent of the time. That's astounding. Conversely, the defense has forced exactly zero turnovers in 22 second-half possessions by Houston, San Diego and Indianapolis.


This times 1000.

To me no issue has been bigger than turnovers.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 10:06 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Turnovers or not, the defense has done it's job in a couple of the games as far as keeping points off the board and holding the offense to short drives in a lot of cases.

The offense can't help but to turn the ball over, can't score, and can't generate sustained drives on a consistent basis.

I think there's clearly a reason this team has been drafting starters on the offensive side in the higher rounds at a rapid rate and most defensive picks have been for depth and project players for the future.

Though neither side of the ball has been extremely impressive and dominating, bright spots from either side have seemingly come in the first half of most of the games, other than an exception or two of course. I think a lot of this has to go on the coaching staff and the entire team as they've looked unprepared in the second half of almost every game. The team hasn't deserved to win a playoff game with the way they've played, no doubt, but there is more blame to place in certain places than others.

Of course, there are those like the OP that can't help themselves but just scream from the mountaintop about the defense not generating turnovers while usually crying that others aren't being fair for placing blame elsewhere. Meh, it is what it is. Some people can't help from being biased when speaking of certain topics.

"Turnovers or not"?  It's the playoffs.  A turnover can turn the game.  It sure did in the SB.  

[jj22]

Turnover! Turnover! Can we just work on getting a sack in the second half? We can't even get that in these playoff games.

[*bfine32*]

I remember when Zimmer was here he stated did not focus on turnovers. He was more about sound Defense and getting the ball back on downs.

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 11:04 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "Turnovers or not"?  It's the playoffs.  A turnover can turn the game.  It sure did in the SB.  

They can, especially when your offense is handing them out once out of every 3 times they have possession of the ball.

But hey, let's focus on that darn defense that kept points off the board and shut a lot of drives down. To hell with scoring points to win games, the defense should be pitching shut outs every single time! Why not expect that from a team? That's normal, right?

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2015, 10:06 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Turnovers or not, the defense has done it's job in a couple of the games as far as keeping points off the board and holding the offense to short drives in a lot of cases.

The offense can't help but to turn the ball over, can't score, and can't generate sustained drives on a consistent basis.

I think there's clearly a reason this team has been drafting starters on the offensive side in the higher rounds at a rapid rate and most defensive picks have been for depth and project players for the future.

Though neither side of the ball has been extremely impressive and dominating, bright spots from either side have seemingly come in the first half of most of the games, other than an exception or two of course. I think a lot of this has to go on the coaching staff and the entire team as they've looked unprepared in the second half of almost every game. The team hasn't deserved to win a playoff game with the way they've played, no doubt, but there is more blame to place in certain places than others.

Of course, there are those like the OP that can't help themselves but just scream from the mountaintop about the defense not generating turnovers while usually crying that others aren't being fair for placing blame elsewhere. Meh, it is what it is. Some people can't help from being biased when speaking of certain topics.

I pointed out the fact that the defense outscored the offense in the 2012 game.  The defense scores 7 on a pick 6, gives up 19 points and the offense contributes a paltry 2 FGs for all their trouble.  Geez, how hard is it for an 10-6 team to score 13 flippin' points?!  Tell every team in the playoffs all they have to do is score 13 points on offense and they get a W and I'd imagine they would get pretty confident and grateful for the defense.

Complain about the defense in the playoffs all you like, but leave 2012 out of it. The bottom line is that our defense can disappoint, but our offense's net point totals in the playoffs fall deep in the 32nd-ranked territory. The fact that we play "last place" offense in the playoffs is why we keep getting 12th place trophies.

[Benton]

Turnover generating is great, but we can't rely on that. In the playoffs, some teams play a more conservative game than normal. Of course, some teams go all pass happy and just give the ball away... like us. Which, to me, has been the main issue. Everybody wants to point to Dalton in the playoffs, but the playcalling has been ridiculous. In a close game with a running game that's consistently moving you down the field, you don't suddenly switch to a passing game. I've never understood that decision making, but we've done it under two different OCs... so I'm hoping Marvin has a subscription to the Enquirer.

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 11:54 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I pointed out the fact that the defense outscored the offense in the 2012 game.  The defense scores 7 on a pick 6, gives up 19 points and the offense contributes a paltry 2 FGs for all their trouble.  Geez, how hard is it for an 10-6 team to score 13 flippin' points?!  Tell every team in the playoffs all they have to do is score 13 points on offense and they get a W and I'd imagine they would get pretty confident and grateful for the defense.

Complain about the defense in the playoffs all you like, but leave 2012 out of it.  The bottom line is that our defense can disappoint, but our offense's net point totals in the playoffs fall deep in the 32nd-ranked territory.  The fact that we play "last place" offense in the playoffs is why we keep getting 12th place trophies.

The defense hasn't been amazing, but they played well in 2012 and weren't nearly as bad as some want to claim in 2013 if you look at a drive-by-drive and play-by-play breakdown.

The fact that people have to deflect blame from the offense to say it's "equal" just because the defense didn't generate as many turnovers as they'd like is absolutely stupid and ridiculous.

Some are just too sensitive because if they blame the offense they feel like they're blaming Andy and giving in to all of the "haters". Just be realistic, give the offense the HUGE chunk of blame they deserve whether Andy was a part of it or not. The entire offense has completely sucked from top to bottom in every game. The defense hasn't been the 00 Ravens but they sure haven't been nearly as bad as the offense.

[2MinutesHate]

Because of the inability to move the ball and the turnovers by the offense (especially in the second half), I think it actually makes it harder for the defense to create turnovers.  Why?  If I was the offensive coordinator of the opposing team, I'd call plays where the chances of that happening were lower.  Hang on to the ball in the 2nd half and let the Bengals hang themselves.  History shows that they will.  They'll start throwing it 60-70% of the time and then just wait for them to make a mistake.

I think there's plenty of evidence to point the finger at the coaching and offense as well.

[fredtoast]

(07-28-2015, 11:31 AM)djs7685 Wrote: They can, especially when your offense is handing them out once out of every 3 times they have possession of the ball.

This is just an insane number of turnovers.  There is no way possible you can win a game turning the ball over that often.

The defense should be criticized for not forcing any turnovers, but clearly the majority of the problem is the offense.

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2015, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is just an insane number of turnovers.  There is no way possible you can win a game turning the ball over that often.

The defense should be criticized for not forcing any turnovers, but clearly the majority of the problem is the offense.

My argument to the criticism of the defense not creating turnovers is that it's a bit stupid to simply assume an offense that turns the ball over more than it scores in the 2nd half is going to turn defensive turnovers into points.  Until further notice I have to assume the defense getting turnovers is going to give the offense more opportunity to screw up rather than score.

Ida know, I've watched games where the QB throws more INTs than complete passes and it never occurred to me to say "Well if his defense just created more turnovers he'd start throwing TDs!"

[masonbengals fan]

(07-28-2015, 11:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In 24 second-half possessions, the Bengals have turned it over eight times, or 33.3 percent of the time. That's astounding. Conversely, the defense has forced exactly zero turnovers in 22 second-half possessions by Houston, San Diego and Indianapolis.


This times 1000.

To me no issue has been bigger than turnovers.

Nobody can win when you turn the ball over 33.3% of the time.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 12:40 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Nobody can win when you turn the ball over 33.3% of the time.

Seattle turned the ball over 31% of the time in the game against the Packers and still won.  That said, it is clearly a huge problem made even bigger by the fact that our defense doesn't generate any to balance out the +/-