You Add Any Two of the Following...

[Harmening]

(07-27-2015, 10:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My $0.02 on Luck. I have him at #3 and there are a number of sites (ESPN, MSN, MMQB) that concur. I also think I have seen him as low as 6. If criteria was to start a franchise today i would only take Rogers ahead of him. FWIW. I'd take Big Ben over Manning or Brees.

So I don't think anyone is wrong for having him inside of or outside of the top 4. IMO he's inside.

I'm with you on this.  I would love to have Luck on our team.  He just has the 'it' factor.    

Rodgers would be my first choice, and :puke: I would take Ben to lead the Bengals outside of those two.

[blt4584]

(07-27-2015, 04:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Toast said "A top 5-10 range QB. (However you define and rank this.)"

I don't think most NFL fans view Luck as top 4 QB yet. 

Aaron Rodgers
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees

Those are still the big 4 for now. They all have rings and they've all been elite for years. Luck is well on his way, but he still turns the ball over a lot (16 int's + league high 13 fumbles) and he doesn't have the ring yet. He's never had a completion % higher than 61.7. To me, he's just outside the top 4, in the same group as Rivers, Ben and Romo.

I would probably put Luck above Manning right now. Peyton has the legacy, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up looking pretty average this season.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-27-2015, 10:37 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That's belittling to someone of Luck's caliber.

It would be like saying Tiger Woods in his prime was "pretty good" or something along those lines. Everything is relative. Being top 10 and the next elite QB is a great accomplishment for most QBs, but it's borderline insulting to a guy that's clearly ahead of almost all of his peers.

If you asked me if I'd rather have Luck or Brady, Manning, or Brees for a single year or career or any amount of time, you probably wouldn't like my answer, but I'd bet it would go along with a lot more NFL owners, GMs, and coaches than you may want to believe.

Luck isn't just the future, he's the present too. Peyton Manning is my favorite player in the NFL (fun fact of the day) and I'm a huge Brady fanboy too. I don't even really like Luck, but I believe Andrew is probably the best in the league right now other than Aaron Rodgers, and I don't even know how wide that gap is to be perfectly honest.

Luck hasn't hit his prime. He's just getting started. 

You are on crack if you seriously think saying he's the next elite QB is in anyway insulting. 

You sound like the nutjob Dalton homers. Who you hate. 

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 12:38 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Luck hasn't hit his prime. He's just getting started. 

You are on crack if you seriously think saying he's the next elite QB is in anyway insulting. 

You sound like the nutjob Dalton homers. Who you hate. 

Just because he hasn't hit his prime doesn't mean he can't already be among the elite. It makes it that much more impressive.

As I said, I'm not even a big Luck fan, I just watch him play and see an extraordinary QB and I can't downplay his talent just because I like other players at the position more.

You can disagree all you'd like, but it's belittling to throw any QB in a tier lower than they deserve. Is it a compliment to Andy to say he's a below average QB? Is it a compliment to Romo to say he's an average QB? No and no. Everything is relative, and I don't need drugs to tell me that Andrew Luck is already an elite QB and has earned that ranking.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-24-2015, 02:01 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You can choose TWO of the following additions to this team.  Whatcha got?

-A top 5-10 range QB.  (However you define and rank this.)
-Any offensive player from any other team, outside of QB.
-Any defensive player ever.  In the history of the league.
-Any Bengals great that's not a QB.  Ever.  Whoever you like.
-Any current NFL coach.
-Yourself.  You're paid your current salary for whatever you do.  But you get to experience being part of the team for one full year.
-Turd Furgeson.

Make your picks, and please name your hypothetical choice.  Hopefully this is a little fun, just trying to create some talking points.

Since the list says "Current" NFL coach, I select the following:

-Lawrence Taylor
-Chad Johnson

Assuming both are in their prime, these two players push the team over the top.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-24-2015, 04:13 PM)Benton Wrote: 1. Sam Wyche (any non-QB Bengal great)
2. Lawrence Taylor (any defensive player)

Like how you loopholed any "current" coach...well done.  These were my original two, but I switched out the coach for Chad Johnson.  In his prime, he was undefendable....with AJ?  Sick. 

[Stewy]

(07-27-2015, 01:12 PM)djs7685 Wrote: If you're just poo-pooing on him poo-pooing on your selection of Andrew Luck, that's fine, but it doesn't make someone's opinion invalidated just because they feel Andrew Luck doesn't fit the criteria. I bet you'd find many, many more people that would agree with him that Luck is top 4.

Toast did originally state "however you define and rank this", but don't be surprised when somebody doesn't agree with your assessment of a top QB in the league.

#1 - He drew first blood giving an unsolicited opinion on my selection, I responded in kind.  Get over it.
#2 - After reading many responses, you are clearly wrong considering the bolded portion above.  Looks like you and JC are on an island.

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 11:04 AM)Stewy Wrote: #1 - He drew first blood giving an unsolicited opinion on my selection, I responded in kind.  Get over it.
#2 - After reading many responses, you are clearly wrong considering the bolded portion above.  Looks like you and JC are on an island.

1. Wow, you seem like a real friendly person no need to be a complete asshole just because somebody mentioned that Luck is probably better than you say he is.

2. How many responses? You mean you and the TWO other people that have said they don't think Luck is a top 5 QB? I guess I'll have to remember to poll a total of 5 people in Jungle Noise the next time I want to get a consensus of something. Apparently, Shake and Berserker are the only people alive that have an opinion that matters, right? I was speaking outside of these boards, ya know, where there are tons of knowledgeable people who are professionals and analyze the game for a living. For some reason, most of those folks believe Luck is a top 5 QB, strange that they'd disagree with randoms on a Bengals' fan board.

Looks like you need to "get over it" when you aren't bright enough to comprehend that 2 people's opinion doesn't disprove what I originally stated.

[djs7685]

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/07/03/nfl-quarterback-rankings

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/men-under-center-ranking-each-nfl-teams-qb-situation-for-2015/ss-BBjMlU2#image=32

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2015-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=32652348&page=3 (ESPN's insider list)

Silly me for not listening to a handful of Bengals' fans instead of using these sources when I speak of what people generally think about a player

[Shake n Blake]

(07-28-2015, 11:23 AM)djs7685 Wrote: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/07/03/nfl-quarterback-rankings

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/men-under-center-ranking-each-nfl-teams-qb-situation-for-2015/ss-BBjMlU2#image=32

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2015-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=32652348&page=3 (ESPN's insider list)

Silly me for not listening to a handful of Bengals' fans instead of using these sources when I speak of what people generally think about a player  

From the ABC article you listed:

"The five voters who placed Luck in the second tier cited a few reasons. Some thought Luck needed to do a better job protecting the football. Others pointed to Luck's underwhelming resume in the postseason. Luck also benefits from playing in a weak division."

There are other sources who agree that Luck is not quite top 4 yet, including:

the Indianapolis Star (you'd think they'd be biased) - http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/07/17/nfl-qb-ranks-andrew-luck-aaron-rodgers-peyton-manning-drew-brees-tom-brady/30294161/

USA Today - http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/qb-rank-nfl-quarterbacks-rankings/

Fansided - http://fansided.com/2015/06/20/nfl-quarterback-power-rankings/5/


Some might view Luck as a top 4 guy already. I respect that, but I think it's it a bit early for that. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton and Brees all posted phenomenal stats last year and they're all proven in the playoffs. As much grief as Peyton takes for choking, he took the Broncos to the SB just a couple seasons ago. Luck has been pretty bad in the playoffs to be honest.

It's my opinion that he's not top 4 yet, and it's not a ridiculous opinion. Some have him in there, some don't. Both sides have valid points.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-27-2015, 11:01 PM)blt4584 Wrote: I would probably put Luck above Manning right now. Peyton has the legacy, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up looking pretty average this season.

That's quite possible, but it's speculating. Based on their production from last year, I can't put Luck ahead of Manning yet.

Just my opinion.

[blt4584]

(07-28-2015, 08:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That's quite possible, but it's speculating. Based on their production from last year, I can't put Luck ahead of Manning yet.

Just my opinion.

That's understandable.

I saw two very different Peyton Mannings last year. First half of the season Peyton looked real good while the second half version looked worn down.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-28-2015, 10:27 PM)blt4584 Wrote: That's understandable.

I saw two very different Peyton Mannings last year. First half of the season Peyton looked real good while the second half version looked worn down.

Peyton was dealing with a torn right quad. All of his "bad" games took place after this injury.

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2015/07/22/dont-expect-peyton-manning-to-regress-in-2015/

He was unable to plant and drive the ball, which led to decreased velocity on medium and long range throws. This led to more INT's and ugly throws. I expect Peyton to look fine this year, but the Broncos may pass less in order to keep Peyton healthy.

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 06:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: From the ABC article you listed:

"The five voters who placed Luck in the second tier cited a few reasons. Some thought Luck needed to do a better job protecting the football. Others pointed to Luck's underwhelming resume in the postseason. Luck also benefits from playing in a weak division."

There are other sources who agree that Luck is not quite top 4 yet, including:

the Indianapolis Star (you'd think they'd be biased) - http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/07/17/nfl-qb-ranks-andrew-luck-aaron-rodgers-peyton-manning-drew-brees-tom-brady/30294161/

USA Today - http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/07/17/qb-rank-nfl-quarterbacks-rankings/

Fansided - http://fansided.com/2015/06/20/nfl-quarterback-power-rankings/5/


Some might view Luck as a top 4 guy already. I respect that, but I think it's it a bit early for that. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton and Brees all posted phenomenal stats last year and they're all proven in the playoffs. As much grief as Peyton takes for choking, he took the Broncos to the SB just a couple seasons ago. Luck has been pretty bad in the playoffs to be honest.

It's my opinion that he's not top 4 yet, and it's not a ridiculous opinion. Some have him in there, some don't. Both sides have valid points.

I find it interesting that for some reason you quoted a part of the article I posted even though it doesn't go against my point whatsoever. 5 of the 35 (14%) of the voters put Luck out of the 1st tier. That means that 86% put Luck in tier 1, that's sort of proving my point, no? Brady and Rodgers were the only unanimous 1st tier QBs, so using the logic that 5 voters put Luck out of the 1st tier somehow goes against what I've been saying, that means that Brees and Manning aren't 1st tier either. The fact is, the other 30 guys must have ranked Luck awfully high for him to still end up as number 3 (the highest average vote for any non-unanimous 1st tier QB), and if you read the quotes, there are at the very least, a couple of those polled that put Luck at #1 even ahead of Rodgers.

As far as your links go, I must apologize, but I'll take the opinion of NFL personnel directors, GMs, coaches, and coordinators over a random newspaper or two and a blog I've never heard of.

I can't bash the other elite QBs for having good teams because it's not really their fault, but you have to be impressed that Luck turned a shitty team into an immediate contender. That's what elite QBs do, and that's exactly what he did.

There is a lot of opinion involved, and we can agree to disagree on the matter, but as I said before, there are more reputable sources that list Luck in the top 4 opposed to the ones listing him outside of it. I don't know if it's a "ridiculous opinion" that he's not top 4, but there are clearly more people in the football world that agree with my perspective, but their word isn't gospel either.

Hell, I disagree with a lot of the NFL Top 100 players, and that's voted on by NFL guys, albeit players and not coaches and personnel directors, but it's at least a similar situation. All is good.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-29-2015, 08:56 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I find it interesting that for some reason you quoted a part of the article I posted even though it doesn't go against my point whatsoever. 5 of the 35 (14%) of the voters put Luck out of the 1st tier. That means that 86% put Luck in tier 1, that's sort of proving my point, no? Brady and Rodgers were the only unanimous 1st tier QBs, so using the logic that 5 voters put Luck out of the 1st tier somehow goes against what I've been saying, that means that Brees and Manning aren't 1st tier either. The fact is, the other 30 guys must have ranked Luck awfully high for him to still end up as number 3 (the highest average vote for any non-unanimous 1st tier QB), and if you read the quotes, there are at the very least, a couple of those polled that put Luck at #1 even ahead of Rodgers.

As far as your links go, I must apologize, but I'll take the opinion of NFL personnel directors, GMs, coaches, and coordinators over a random newspaper or two and a blog I've never heard of.

I can't bash the other elite QBs for having good teams because it's not really their fault, but you have to be impressed that Luck turned a shitty team into an immediate contender. That's what elite QBs do, and that's exactly what he did.

There is a lot of opinion involved, and we can agree to disagree on the matter, but as I said before, there are more reputable sources that list Luck in the top 4 opposed to the ones listing him outside of it. I don't know if it's a "ridiculous opinion" that he's not top 4, but there are clearly more people in the football world that agree with my perspective, but their word isn't gospel either.

Hell, I disagree with a lot of the NFL Top 100 players, and that's voted on by NFL guys, albeit players and not coaches and personnel directors, but it's at least a similar situation. All is good.

First off, tier 1 included 6 QB's, not 4. Who knows how many other "league insiders" voted him in 5th or 6th place? 

5 of 35 (14%) had Luck in the 2nd tier, which is 7th or worse. I'm guessing that quite a few more had him in 5th-6th place. Unless you can list how many placed him in the top 4, this poll proves nothing.

I listed the opinions of the Indianapolis Star (the Indy equivalent to the Enquirer), USA Today (maybe you've heard of them) and Fansided (one of the biggest sports sites on the net) to show you that the opinion that Luck isn't a top 4 QB isn't isolated to just a few guys on Jungle Noise. 

In the end, Toast left this open to opinion, and my opinion is that Luck isn't a top 4 QB yet. It's an opinion that many other people share.