Why are 'Wake Up Call' Games Necessary for Bengals

[Luvnit2]

(08-23-2017, 10:03 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While I believe you, a majority of the fans don't have the ability to go to a practice and especially see the coaches in that manner. From what most fans see (which is regular games on TV or up in the stands), we don't (get to) see the coaches showing any intensity or putting pressure on the players to perform better. We often just see Marvin clap his hands, say "Let's go!"

So you are saying fans do not get all of the facts and just make dumb comments due to lack of knowledge. Why is that acceptable? Why is acceptable to spread fake news as though it is fact? If someone is going to attack someone with specific comments, they should make sure they have the facts, all of them. Otherwise don't post it.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-22-2017, 11:13 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: 0-7 can make a team cocky I guess?

The real reason is complacency. When an organization like ours leans on the side of loyalty instead of running it like a business, there is less accountability. Therefore, less fear of poor performance and decisions from everyone in the organization down to the mascot.

Well said......Exhibit A:  Alexander, Paul. :paul:

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2017, 10:14 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So you are saying fans do not get all of the facts and just make dumb comments due to lack of knowledge. Why is that acceptable? Why is acceptable to spread fake news as though it is fact? If someone is going to attack someone with specific comments, they should make sure they have the facts, all of them. Otherwise don't post it.

I was simply providing some reasoning for why Sabertooth (and others) feel that the team never goes off on the players from what they have seen. While some (like yourself) have seen the coaches go off on players in practice, they don't seem to do the same in regular games on the sidelines.
To support your claim though, it was reported after the Chiefs preseason game that reporters heard Marvin yelling at the players behind closed doors.

What this team seems to prefer is doing their yelling at their players in private rather than make it public. That's a personal choice, but it can be perceived in different ways. While some people feel that this is how it should be handled, others get the perception that the coaches are passive and therefore don't care about performance because they aren't willing to show that on the sidelines in front of cameras.

While what I care about most is holding players (and coaches) accountable and to each his/her own how they want to handle something, perhaps being more public rather than private might have more effect and help change things around for the better. All we really care about is seeing an improvement on the field.

[Luvnit2]

(08-23-2017, 10:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I was simply providing some reasoning for why Sabertooth (and others) feel that the team never goes off on the players from what they have seen. While some (like yourself) have seen the coaches go off on players in practice, they don't seem to do the same in regular games on the sidelines.
To support your claim though, it was reported after the Chiefs preseason game that reporters heard Marvin yelling at the players behind closed doors.

What this team seems to prefer is doing their yelling at their players in private rather than make it public. That's a personal choice, but it can be perceived in different ways. While some people feel that this is how it should be handled, others get the perception that the coaches are passive and therefore don't care about performance.

While what I care about most is holding players (and coaches) accountable and to each his/her own how they want to handle something, perhaps being more public rather than private might have more effect and help change things around for the better. All we really care about is seeing an improvement on the field.

 I train all of my management people to respect their employees. One way to do so is by:

Praise in public and discipline in private

I could care less if my customers think I am passive and have no idea what is done behind closed doors. I care about my people and it is the respectful way to handle issues. As you stated, it has been reported over and over through the years ML gets on players, I have reported on it every year how intense the staff is at training camp (I go every year at least 1 time) in this forum, others have stated it as well. So the information is out there, but some have a tendency to ignore anything that goes against their perception (closed minded) thus they refuse to listen to others.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-22-2017, 11:21 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: If this was true, the organization would not have the solid record they have over the last 10 years... they would be in the basement like the Browns over the last 10 years.. 

The 'atleast we're not the Browns' defense. Atleast we're not the worst of the absolute worst.

And I'll give you that we are respectable. We're the Andy Dalton of franchises...somewhere in the 14-16 range if you ranked all QB's and Franchises.

We've made the step from horrible to average to sometimes good. But, the jump from good to great is steep and requires commitment to being the best EVERY DAY. You can't take shortcuts to being great. You can't just go through the motions in camp and preseason.

Going from good to great is something that we haven't been able to do and the clock is ticking on our core.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2017, 10:52 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote:  I train all of my management people to respect their employees. One way to do so is by:

Praise in public and discipline in private

I could care less if my customers think I am passive and have no idea what is done behind closed doors. I care about my people and it is the respectful way to handle issues. As you stated, it has been reported over and over through the years ML gets on players, I have reported on it every year how intense the staff is at training camp (I go every year at least 1 time) in this forum, others have stated it as well. So the information is out there, but some have a tendency to ignore anything that goes against their perception (closed minded) thus they refuse to listen to others.

While this makes total sense from a business perspective, many fans don't associate sports with a business (as you know).
It seems many fans take a "Just win, baby" mentality toward sports to achieve a championship, even if it means being disrespectful amongst colleagues.

[sandwedge]

This isn't just a Bengals thing. All teams in every sport go thru it. Hell, I think it was 2 years ago KC put a big ass whooping on NE, Brady got benched. The following week NE stomped a big ol' mud hole in us! It happens!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-23-2017, 11:16 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While this makes total sense from a business perspective, many fans don't associate sports with a business (as you know).
It seems many fans take a "Just win, baby" mentality toward sports to achieve a championship, even if it means being disrespectful amongst colleagues.

Exactly.  Being in management myself, I adopt Luvnit's principle of praise in public, discipline in private because it's the right thing to do.  Give respect, you get respect.....and it just fosters a more positive work environment for everyone.  In fact, the owner's lackey showed up in my office with a disciplinary action concerning one of my crew and brought it up in front of a sales rep from an admixture company.  He got his ass reamed in front of the rep by me, because he had no business bringing up a disciplinary matter in front of a person outside of the company.  I don't even like discipline in front of ANYONE, period.

Having said all of that, sports are different.  I've been/seen ass chewings on the sidelines many times.  It's an attention getter, and kinda implies urgency.  So, while they may get on folks behind the scenes, save for Mike Zimmer, they all seemed pretty passive to casual passerby.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-23-2017, 11:42 AM)sandwedge Wrote: This isn't just a Bengals thing. All teams in every sport go thru it. Hell, I think it was 2 years ago KC put a big ass whooping on NE, Brady got benched. The following week NE stomped a big ol' mud hole in us! It happens!

[sandwedge]

(08-23-2017, 11:44 AM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly.  Being in management myself, I adopt Luvnit's principle of praise in public, discipline in private because it's the right thing to do.  Give respect, you get respect.....and it just fosters a more positive work environment for everyone.  In fact, the owner's lackey showed up in my office with a disciplinary action concerning one of my crew and brought it up in front of a sales rep from an admixture company.  He got his ass reamed in front of the rep by me, because he had no business bringing up a disciplinary matter in front of a person outside of the company.  I don't even like discipline in front of ANYONE, period.

Having said all of that, sports are different.  I've been/seen ass chewings on the sidelines many times.  It's an attention getter, and kinda implies urgency.  So, while they may get on folks behind the scenes, save for Mike Zimmer, they all seemed pretty passive to casual passerby.

I don't think "Professional" sports is different, it is a business. I also don't think we hear exactly what goes on down on the sidelines. Screaming at a grown man while standing 2 inches from their face is not going to encourage them but just the opposite, especially with millions looking on. Remember Hard Knocks? Coaches were on players butts during practices and during games on the benches where they weren't front and center for all to see.

[sandwedge]

(08-23-2017, 11:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote:

LoL, somebody stop that man, he's gonna kill that poor guy!!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-23-2017, 11:54 AM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't think "Professional" sports is different, it is a business. I also don't think we hear exactly what goes on down on the sidelines. Screaming at a grown man while standing 2 inches from their face is not going to encourage them but just the opposite, especially with millions looking on. Remember Hard Knocks? Coaches were on players butts during practices and during games on the benches where they weren't front and center for all to see.

Sports are played in 60 minute windows, or innnings/quaters/etc, so mistakes are magnified.  The intensity is therefore ratcheted up exponentially.  That's why we see guys like Zimmer, Parcells, others get in people's shit.  Belichick has the glare......Marvin never even chews an official's ass.  People see this, and they think he's passive. A lot of people don't see Hard Knocks, or follow as closely as a lot of us die hards do, you gotta take that into consideration.  When I played, we were praised if we did well.....but we were also berated a tad for bad mistakes, and I never made it past high school.  You want to be praised, but at the same time you don't want to hear that shit either.  It motivates, I think, regardless of level.  It's kind of like saying please and thank you all of the time when you ask someone to do something until the shit hits the fan, and you need things done NOW.....it's more likely to be "do this, grab that"....etc.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-23-2017, 09:48 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly. Some people seem to dismiss everything they see in the preaseason because "it's preseason".

While the final score itself doesn't matter at all, some of the individual performances can indicate strengths/weaknesses for the regular season. THAT is what people like you and I worry about.

Yep. The bottom line is that you want guys who will compete. Whether it be preseason or whatever...you want guys out there who are trying hard to improve. Not guys who just go through the motions and lose bad and don't care.

They either tried hard and got outplayed. Or didn't try hard and didn't care. EITHER way there is a PROBLEM.

[sandwedge]

(08-23-2017, 01:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Sports are played in 60 minute windows, or innnings/quaters/etc, so mistakes are magnified.  The intensity is therefore ratcheted up exponentially.  That's why we see guys like Zimmer, Parcells, others get in people's shit.  Belichick has the glare......Marvin never even chews an official's ass.  People see this, and they think he's passive. A lot of people don't see Hard Knocks, or follow as closely as a lot of us die hards do, you gotta take that into consideration.  When I played, we were praised if we did well.....but we were also berated a tad for bad mistakes, and I never made it past high school.  You want to be praised, but at the same time you don't want to hear that shit either.  It motivates, I think, regardless of level.  It's kind of like saying please and thank you all of the time when you ask someone to do something until the shit hits the fan, and you need things done NOW.....it's more likely to be "do this, grab that"....etc.

I get what you are saying. I have coached at the high school level the past 4 years and the "Governing Body" put out a memo a few years back, no grabbing face mask or getting into players faces. It was perceived as threatening.  I had to tone it down, my wife would even get on me. Funny I have players tell me, I was there favorite coach here during their time playing. Times have changed.... I spent 15 years with SEAL Team 5 and verbal abuse was an everyday thing!!! Different circumstances of course but yet it did light a fire under your ass!! Lol
My guess is coaches like Forrest Gregg would have called it quits under today's coddling... 

[sandwedge]

(08-23-2017, 01:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. The bottom line is that you want guys who will compete. Whether it be preseason or whatever...you want guys out there who are trying hard to improve. Not guys who just go through the motions and lose bad and don't care.

They either tried hard and got outplayed. Or didn't try hard and didn't care. EITHER way there is a PROBLEM.

I don't think guys were going thru the motion so to speak. I'm pretty sure everyone that is not starting wants a job. I do agree with you on players trying hard but not succeeding. Example was Clarke, he played hard I thought, but the end result is he did get a hold Mahommes once just wasn't quick enough.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-23-2017, 01:45 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I get what you are saying. I have coached at the high school level the past 4 years and the "Governing Body" put out a memo a few years back, no grabbing face mask or getting into players faces. It was perceived as threatening.  I had to tone it down, my wife would even get on me. Funny I have players tell me, I was there favorite coach here during their time playing. Times have changed.... I spent 15 years with SEAL Team 5 and verbal abuse was an everyday thing!!! Different circumstances of course but yet it did light a fire under your ass!! Lol
My guess is coaches like Forrest Gregg would have called it quits under today's coddling... 

Brother, I'd say you're right!

SEAL....wow.  Nice work sir, and thank you for putting your ass on the line so schlubs like me can sit around and ***** on a message board.   :andy:

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-23-2017, 11:42 AM)sandwedge Wrote: This isn't just a Bengals thing. All teams in every sport go thru it. Hell, I think it was 2 years ago KC put a big ass whooping on NE, Brady got benched. The following week NE stomped a big ol' mud hole in us! It happens!

Exactly. I've stated several times over the years, it's much harder to predict the outcome of games over the last 5+ years because teams are so mercurial from week to week. For the most part, you just don't see consistency unless the team is really bad like Cleveland or Jacksonville or really good like NE. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-22-2017, 09:21 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Why is it necessary for the team to get a whooping before they 'realize' they need to play better?

Lap's reasoning for the dismal performance on D vs KC echoes statements made by the Cincinnati Organization for years.

"KC was embarrassed by the 49ers, KC lost upfront to the 49ers... so naturally that is why KC came out and dominated the Bengals upfront. Oh hey, by domino logic, the Bengals should do the same next week to their opponent because they were embarrassed! The parallels are astounding!!"

What is with this domino logic? Why can't the Bengals just perform without needing motivation from the previous week?

How often do we discuss Marvin's record 'after a loss'?

Why does it matter? Team should perform no matter what happened last week.

I understand this is just the rationale that we use to comprehend losing and to give us motivation moving forward, but to me, it happens far too often for this team.

Wake up call games are in the regular season.

Cannot take much if anything from that game.

This third game you can take a bit from the first half. I am excited myself.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-23-2017, 01:51 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't think guys were going thru the motion so to speak. I'm pretty sure everyone that is not starting wants a job. I do agree with you on players trying hard but not succeeding. Example was Clarke, he played hard I thought, but the end result is he did get a hold Mahommes once just wasn't quick enough.

If guys are trying hard and we look that bad then we have major talent issues.

[GreenCornBengal]

(08-23-2017, 11:42 AM)sandwedge Wrote: This isn't just a Bengals thing. All teams in every sport go thru it. Hell, I think it was 2 years ago KC put a big ass whooping on NE, Brady got benched. The following week NE stomped a big ol' mud hole in us! It happens!

This came to mind as well when I had created the post.

All week, we heard 'NE is gonna give it to Cinci because NE did poorly the week before'.... Did we not buy into that logic and take it on the chin? We had a rationale for losing before it even happened!!

WTS
-Wake up call game scenario worked for NE because they rarely get humbled.
-Wake up call game scenario doesn't work for us because we get humbled a few times each year, and typically have an annual humbling in the playoffs.

IDK, I just don't buy into the whole motivated more one week vs another. This is the reason NE has been successful every year for the past decade; they are highly motivated for every game. They don't have a 'big brother' rival to 'play up' for. They play each week like it is their last, no room to go 'oh well we weren't expecting that'...

but at this point I'm comparing us to the Patriots which isn't really fair. :)