Im not blaming Andy Dalton

[WeezyBengal]

Im not taking the bate. Its too easy. He was bad yesterday, but at this point in his career, we know who Dalton is. Hes an average quarterback whos capable of terrible games and capable of great games. Yesterday was one of his terrible games.

Who I am blaming is the Bengals organization. They ignored the offensive line in the off season and it showed yesterday. They got rid of their two best players from a bad line last year and failed to do anything to help protect Andy. Instead, they drafted a wide receiver who they KNEW wasn't going to make much of an impact this year. Ross was a complete luxury pick.

You go ahead and throw AJ Mccaron back there and see what happens. Its going to be the same thing. Running for his life, rolling out of the pocket, tipped balls at the line because offensive lineman are two inches from his face.

The front office is to blame for this piss poor team. It will never change. They are inept. Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, everyone. It makes me sick because there are actually some really talented guys on this team.

[WiregrassBenGal]

Okay, so what WeezyBengal says makes sense. Yesterday's game was so painful to watch I turned it off after Andy blew a 3rd down pass at the end of the 3rd quarter. It turned out there was no scoring (and probably no action) from either team after that. Yes, the line was bad, but remember that he also missed somebody who was wide open and could have walked for the TD.

This was so bad it made me think of his other really bad games and there were two in 2014, one where he and the Bengals barely got past the 50 against the Colts, and were shut out in Indy and another where the Browns held him to three points.

I really like Andy and hope he's not losing it or that the swiss cheese front line is going to get him hurt. Just to try to put it in some perspective, I checked to see if the greatest quarterback I've ever seen, Joe Montana, was ever shut out and he was, but it was with the Chiefs when he was in his late 30s and he was getting over a viral infection.

This was the first game I've seen via antenna in my Dayton apartment and of course I want to watch more. I'm just hoping that at least some of the next ones are going to be fun.

[Bengalbug]

(09-11-2017, 09:26 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Im not taking the bate. Its too easy. He was bad yesterday, but at this point in his career, we know who Dalton is. Hes an average quarterback whos capable of terrible games and capable of great games. Yesterday was one of his terrible games.

Who I am blaming is the Bengals organization. They ignored the offensive line in the off season and it showed yesterday. They got rid of their two best players from a bad line last year and failed to do anything to help protect Andy. Instead, they drafted a wide receiver who they KNEW wasn't going to make much of an impact this year. Ross was a complete luxury pick.

You go ahead and throw AJ Mccaron back there and see what happens. Its going to be the same thing. Running for his life, rolling out of the pocket, tipped balls at the line because offensive lineman are two inches from his face.

The front office is to blame for this piss poor team. It will never change. They are inept. Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, everyone. It makes me sick because there are actually some really talented guys on this team.

Dalton was beyond bad, but it wouldn't have mattered how good he was yesterday with how bad his LT, and OL in general played.

Had andy played well, it would have been eerily similar to last years jets game where he eeked out a win against a bad team. But only now the OL is worse, way worse. Last year you had 2 studs, 1 average and 2 terrible. Now... they all are terrible, no leader no cohesiveness.they would
Better going 3 wide and using a TE and RB to block and keep a pocket for 2-3 seconds.

Anyway, awful game top to bottom. With an Ol like this dalton should only be asked to throw 20-25 times a game, and lean on the running game. It ain't pretty but not much other option this late in the game.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-11-2017, 09:26 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Im not taking the bate. Its too easy. He was bad yesterday, but at this point in his career, we know who Dalton is. Hes an average quarterback whos capable of terrible games and capable of great games. Yesterday was one of his terrible games.

Who I am blaming is the Bengals organization. They ignored the offensive line in the off season and it showed yesterday. They got rid of their two best players from a bad line last year and failed to do anything to help protect Andy. Instead, they drafted a wide receiver who they KNEW wasn't going to make much of an impact this year. Ross was a complete luxury pick.

You go ahead and throw AJ Mccaron back there and see what happens. Its going to be the same thing. Running for his life, rolling out of the pocket, tipped balls at the line because offensive lineman are two inches from his face.

The front office is to blame for this piss poor team. It will never change. They are inept. Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, everyone. It makes me sick because there are actually some really talented guys on this team.

I agree with every line of your post.  As to the bolded.....don't forget the lazy, and absolutely terrible hire at OC.

[jj22]

The front office was so stubborn with starting their highly drafted OT's they didn't even bring any competition in. It looks like they sabotaged the season, and for no good reason unless we are rebuilding. But then why bring back Marvin?

If they think we are rebuilding then Marvin isn't going anywhere. This is his built in excuse.

If we aren't rebuilding, then they didn't do Marvin any favors this offseason with the lack of urgency, and gamble on failed picks at significant positions.

I don't know what their plan is anymore, but it's disappointing to lose faith so early in the season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-11-2017, 10:08 AM)jj22 Wrote: The front office was so stubborn with starting their highly drafted OT's they didn't even bring any competition in. It looks like they sabotaged the season, and for no good reason unless we are rebuilding. But then why bring back Marvin?

If they think we are rebuilding then Marvin isn't going anywhere. This is his built in excuse.

If we aren't rebuilding, then they didn't do Marvin any favors this offseason with the lack of urgency, and gamble on failed picks at significant positions.

I don't know what their plan is anymore, but it's disappointing to lose faith so early in the season.

Good post....but damn Fisher is going to be ok, I think.  At least he has a mean streak and doesn't give up on a play.  Look at the vines Royle posted in the Andy Dalton sucks thread. :andy:

[WeezyBengal]

(09-11-2017, 09:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree with every line of your post.  As to the bolded.....don't forget the lazy, and absolutely terrible hire at OC.

Yep, that goes right along with it. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 09:26 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Im not taking the bate. Its too easy. He was bad yesterday, but at this point in his career, we know who Dalton is. Hes an average quarterback whos capable of terrible games and capable of great games. Yesterday was one of his terrible games.

Who I am blaming is the Bengals organization. They ignored the offensive line in the off season and it showed yesterday. They got rid of their two best players from a bad line last year and failed to do anything to help protect Andy. Instead, they drafted a wide receiver who they KNEW wasn't going to make much of an impact this year. Ross was a complete luxury pick.

You go ahead and throw AJ Mccaron back there and see what happens. Its going to be the same thing. Running for his life, rolling out of the pocket, tipped balls at the line because offensive lineman are two inches from his face.

The front office is to blame for this piss poor team. It will never change. They are inept. Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, everyone. It makes me sick because there are actually some really talented guys on this team.

The Bengals best players get villainized because they want to win. Palmer, Dillon, Pickens, etc.

The best players get blamed when it's really the organization. The players change. Management has largely stayed the same.

To field an offensive line where 4 of the guys would be backups on most playoff teams...while you have $18.6 million in cap space...is insane.

Why not franchise tag Zeitler or Whitworth so they can't leave and buy yourself another year to replace them?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-11-2017, 10:48 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals best players get villainized because they want to win. Palmer, Dillon, Pickens, etc.

The best players get blamed when it's really the organization. The players change. Management has largely stayed the same.

To field an offensive line where 4 of the guys would be backups on most playoff teams...while you have $18.6 million in cap space...is insane.

Why not franchise tag Zeitler or Whitworth so they can't leave and buy yourself another year to replace them?

'member when they let Palmer get bloodied back there for several years, knowing he couldn't move that well?  They "don't value those positions".

[Millhouse]

There is a lot of blame to go around on offense. The top 3 culprits are Dalton, Zampese, and the o-line as the skill position guys did good overall for what they had to work with.

Imo it was a bit of all three for why the offense crapped out. There were plays where the o-line and Zamp did their jobs, but Dalton just mucked it up. Other plays Dalton got hurried or sack because it was someone on the o-line. Then a couple of times Zampese went into lets run Gio or was it Hill (brain is foggy) right up the gut twice right after making some strides, only for Dalton to muck it up on 3rd down by throwing an intro.

[OrangeLacroix]

The same people still defending Dalton and citing the O line, are the EXACT SAME people who are lauding the draft and telling everyone how amazing the John Ross and Jake Elliot picks were/are.

Our superfans talk in circles, constantly trying to defend every aspect of this inferior organization

[*ochocincos*]

(09-11-2017, 09:26 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Im not taking the bate. Its too easy. He was bad yesterday, but at this point in his career, we know who Dalton is. Hes an average quarterback whos capable of terrible games and capable of great games. Yesterday was one of his terrible games.

Who I am blaming is the Bengals organization. They ignored the offensive line in the off season and it showed yesterday. They got rid of their two best players from a bad line last year and failed to do anything to help protect Andy. Instead, they drafted a wide receiver who they KNEW wasn't going to make much of an impact this year. Ross was a complete luxury pick.

You go ahead and throw AJ Mccaron back there and see what happens. Its going to be the same thing. Running for his life, rolling out of the pocket, tipped balls at the line because offensive lineman are two inches from his face.

The front office is to blame for this piss poor team. It will never change. They are inept. Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, everyone. It makes me sick because there are actually some really talented guys on this team.

I blame Andy Dalton for still being bad when under pressure. But that's been known since he came into the league and the obvious solutions are either for him to (miraculously at this point) improve his awareness and performance when under pressure or build a strong OL around him. Clearly he still struggles under pressure so the only way to improve is to somehow improve the blocking. Unfortunately due to the decisions made by the Bengals this offseason, that may not be realistically achievable this season and we have to wait until next offseason to find improvements.

[Bengalbug]

(09-11-2017, 11:22 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: The same people still defending Dalton and citing the O line, are the EXACT SAME people who are lauding the draft and telling everyone how amazing the John Ross and Jake Elliot picks were/are.

Our superfans talk in circles, constantly trying to defend every aspect of this inferior organization

Everyone is admitting dalton was bad... but even had he played well the outcome wouldn't have been much different. You are ignoring the fact the bengals ignore that OL is a priority

Anyway, not sure you will find many dalton supporters around here. With that said, I believe e can and will play better, if the OL allows him any time.

[WeezyBengal]

(09-11-2017, 11:22 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: The same people still defending Dalton and citing the O line, are the EXACT SAME people who are lauding the draft and telling everyone how amazing the John Ross and Jake Elliot picks were/are.

Our superfans talk in circles, constantly trying to defend every aspect of this inferior organization

John Ross was an awful pick. I have said it since the draft. 

[OrangeLacroix]

(09-11-2017, 11:27 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Everyone is admitting dalton was bad... but even had he played well the outcome wouldn't have been much different. You are ignoring the fact the bengals ignore that OL is a priority

Anyway, not sure you will find many dalton supporters around here. With that said, I believe e can and will play better, if the OL allows him any time.

Then, that means the John Ross and Elliot picks were - Stupid!

We could have traded down, picked up Cam Robinson or the Wisco Guy for the Line.  We could have signed Whit with a real offer, we could have taken Asiata in the 5th instead of a bad kicker.   This is not hindsight, a small minority of real fans were calling this is real time. 

But, the 'superfan' defended every move, every pick, every non pick.   It's a joke 

[Bengalbug]

(09-11-2017, 11:31 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: Then, that means the John Ross and Elliot picks were - Stupid!

We could have traded down, picked up Cam Robinson or the Wisco Guy for the Line.  We could have signed Whit with a real offer, we could have taken Asiata in the 5th instead of a bad kicker.   This is not hindsight, a small minority of real fans were calling this is real time. 

But, the 'superfan' defended every move, every pick, every non pick.   It's a joke 

Not necessarily. If ross is the best player on the board you take him. You don't draft for need. But letting Zietler and whit leave without any competent plan is on the FO. Whether that is draft, free agency, etc.

Hindsight is 20/20. And if ross was a stupid pick, ced 3 years ago was stupid too. As was Jackson last year.. if you think the bengals will stop drafting for the future after they have done it for 10+ years this way is silly.

The last time the bengals drafted for need was dalton/green and that turned around the franchise. Unfortunately the regime has been living off those coat tails far too long.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 11:22 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: The same people still defending Dalton and citing the O line, are the EXACT SAME people who are lauding the draft and telling everyone how amazing the John Ross and Jake Elliot picks were/are.

Our superfans talk in circles, constantly trying to defend every aspect of this inferior organization

We could go 0-16. Lose Eifert. Not sign any free agents other than a couple washed up guys to 1 year deals. Draft a CB in the 1st Round and fans will be talking about how this is the most talented Bengals Team EVER.

Rinse. Repeat.

[Millhouse]

(09-11-2017, 11:28 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: John Ross was an awful pick. I have said it since the draft. 

I wasnt a fan of it either. The guy misses most of offseason, to only come in the last preseason game to get sneezed on and is out again. I dont trust his health at all. But I also cant see into the future, so hopefully his injured days are behind him (after he is over this injury). 

[Goalpost]

When you throw it 20 yards out of the end zone on 4th down...well...is there a really good answer for that one? I cant decide what irked me the most yesterday. Marvin's punt or that.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-11-2017, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I blame Andy Dalton for still being bad when under pressure. But that's been known since he came into the league and the obvious solutions are either for him to (miraculously at this point) improve his awareness and performance when under pressure or build a strong OL around him. Clearly he still struggles under pressure so the only way to improve is to somehow improve the blocking. Unfortunately due to the decisions made by the Bengals this offseason, that may not be realistically achievable this season and we have to wait until next offseason to find improvements.

I'll follow this up with more about pocket presence and how good QBs like Brees have great pocket presence whereas Dalton has bad pocket presence.
Video of Drew Brees's pocket presence from 2013 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIP5KfOVgyo
You will see in that video that he has great feel in the pocket and does the necessary to keep the play alive.

Dalton, on the other hand, has a tendency to either just stand in place or bail to one side (most often the right).
This quote from Cian Fahey on Twitter after Whitworth left to LA...

Quote:Andy Dalton's lack of pocket presence is about to become relevant."

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/839845677190496256

Also, this note from Scott Barrett on Dalton's 2016 performance when he has a clean pocket vs under pressure:

Quote:Andy Dalton Passer Rating (2016)

Clean Pocket: 102.5
Under Pressure: 57.1

No OL taken in first 150 picks.

Current projected starting OL:
LT = Obuehi (39.4)
LG = Boling (77.0)
C = Bodine (77.4)
RG = Smith (39.3)
RT = Fisher (43.5)

https://twitter.com/ScottBarrettDFB/status/858478108684554240

I've been trying to find a good compilation video of Dalton's lack of pocket presence since being a Bengal, but not having much luck. If someone finds one, please post.