The shortest path to winning in the NFL is to get a Top 10 QB

[Hammerstripes]

(09-15-2017, 12:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Cool story. Enjoy randomly getting someone from this list:
Blake Borltes
EJ Manuel
Rober Griffin III
Ryan Tannehill
Cam Newton
Andrew Luck
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Christian Ponder
Jameis Winston
Marcus Mariota
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz

That's the QB's drafted '11-'16 in the first half of the first round. Keep in mind, you don't get to CHOOSE which one you get. You might be thinking you will be getting an Andrew Luck (marginal improvement over Dalton if at all) but you could be getting Blaine Gabbert instead. Nobody KNOWS Blaine Gabbert is Blaine Gabbert until he is already drafted and starts.


Here's my question, though. What in the world possibly makes you think that if they no longer had Dalton's salary on the books that they would use that money on improving the OL? They had like $18.6m in cap space heading into the start of the season before the Burfict extension, and this is the OL they chose to put out. They had enough cap space to sign Whitworth and a mediocre center in FA. They CHOSE not to. Why would the FO magically change?

Not to mention, Dalton is currently under one of the cheapest QB contracts in the league. If your 1st round pick QB (that odds are won't be better than Dalton, and might not play Year 1) then spends the next two years playing at a cheap cost, will then want a contract of $25-30m/yr. Meanwhile Dalton will be making like $16m.

Well, for starters you can cross off 6 of those guys as they weren't top 3 picks.  And yes, it was easy to see Blaine Gabbart was Blaine Gabbert when he wilted in college.  He put up average numbers in an offense designed to put up big ones.

Why do I think the front office would do that?  Simple, last time they brought in a coach (Lewis) they made 3 big free agent signings (Thornton, Tory James, Kevin Hardy) to fill holes.  Any coach that comes in will probably get the same luxury.

People seem to think that all Mike Brown does is promote from within and never do much outside the organization.  That may be true, but last time we hired a coach:

1.  Outside guy - proven success as a DC
2.  Brought in free agents to shore up things
3.  Drafted a franchise QB.

He did all  the right things back then, they'll do the same again.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-15-2017, 11:18 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Dalton is a decent QB. With a good line and good WR's...he can be somewhere around a Top 12 to 16 QB. Maybe he has a career year and gets up to 10.

With a bad offensive line, he's going to be a bottom tier QB in the league. We're seeing that. Even when he doesn't get pressure, he expects it and makes a bad throw.

As we saw from the playoff appearances, he's an above average guy...but not good enough to transcend this horribly managed franchise and put the team on its back.

While I like Dalton, it's time to move on to McCarron to see what we have. Can he be a Top 10 QB? I doubt he can, but we need to atleast see.

If McCarron can't, chances are we're going to get a Top 5 pick and can draft one of the elite QB's.

Because, this is a QB driven league.

Without Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, etc...those teams wouldn't be elite.

We average Andy. When you're average...sometimes you're good. Sometimes you're bad. Most of the time you're average. That's not good enough.

I appreciate your factual critique of Dalton, but the issues with the offense are not Dalton's fault (that's not to say Dalton doesn't have his issues; he does, most certainly) We have seen what he's capable of with a good OL and a good OC. The only kind of QB that could work with the situation we have now is a prime Roethlisberger. Someone who could make something out of nothing and is hard to bring down.

Even if you brought in a Manning or a Brady they would only do marginally better than what Dalton has done so far. Certainly not enough to oevercome our poor coaching.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-15-2017, 12:42 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I appreciate your factual critique of Dalton, but the issues with the offense are not Dalton's fault (that's not to say Dalton doesn't have his issues; he does, most certainly) We have seen what he's capable of with a good OL and a good OC. The only kind of QB that could work with the situation we have now is a prime Roethlisberger. Someone who could make something out of nothing and is hard to bring down.

Even if you brought in a Manning or a Brady they would only do marginally better than what Dalton has done so far. Certainly not enough to oevercome our poor coaching.

At Dalton's best...he's above average.

At his worst, he was missing open WR's last night. There wasn't pressure every play either. He just missed open guys.

In Game 1, his 4 INT's were from a clean pocket.

Come on with the Manning or Brady talk! When you blitz Manning or Brady they check down to the hot read and make you pay. They also burn you deep.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-15-2017, 12:15 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Well, for starters you can cross off 6 of those guys as they weren't top 3 picks.  And yes, it was easy to see Blaine Gabbart was Blaine Gabbert when he wilted in college.  He put up average numbers in an offense designed to put up big ones.

Why do I think the front office would do that?  Simple, last time they brought in a coach (Lewis) they made 3 big free agent signings (Thornton, Tory James, Kevin Hardy) to fill holes.  Any coach that comes in will probably get the same luxury.

People seem to think that all Mike Brown does is promote from within and never do much outside the organization.  That may be true, but last time we hired a coach:

1.  Outside guy - proven success as a DC
2.  Brought in free agents to shore up things
3.  Drafted a franchise QB.

He did all  the right things back then, they'll do the same again.

Literally the first sentence after my list was "That's the QB's drafted '11-'16 in the first half of the first round."

If you plan is dependant upon Mike Brown doing all the right things as Owner/GM, you're going to enjoy a big 'ol lukewarm bowl of disappointment for the 27th straight year.

[Shake n Blake]

Honestly, was Dalton all that bad last night?


20-35-224-0-0 (76.4 rating)


Hit Eifert on a TD that was called back (not Dalton's fault)...this would've jumped Dalton's passer rating into the 90's
Escaped pressure numerous times. He easily could've been sacked 6-7 times.
Hit a couple deep throws.
He had zero run game help. Constant 3rd and longs. Mixon/Gio/Hill combined for 63 yards on 20 carries (3.15 per carry)
Zampese's offense doesn't look like a pro offense. Guys are covered. Those short throws aren't fooling anyone. The defense is coming to tackle them before the ball gets there.

[*bfine32*]

I always get a kick out of folks saying (fill in blank) would struggle here too with this oline, head coach, OC............

A QB is either a truck or a trailer. Your either pulling the offense or being pulled by them. We have a trailer, the elite QBs are trucks.

[*bfine32*]

(09-15-2017, 01:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Honestly, was Dalton all that bad last night?

Yes.

ALMOST everyone saw it; including those calling the game.

[THE PISTONS]

Yeah...I think we can say that Dalton just isn't good enough to overcome the organization. I do agree, that finding an elite QB isn't easy and at some level you have to develop them.

I doubt that our coaches could do that.

[*Go Cards*]

This OL may be the worst in Bengals history, and that is saying a lot.

Believe Dalton is better suited for team right now than AJM. Yet am perfectly fine benching him for a start to find out.

Joe freakin' Montana could not win with this OL.

What the heck were they thinking ignoring the OL in off season ? It is absurd and the league should step in and make the FO step down.

[THE PISTONS]

See I thought the pass blocking was decent last night. Dalton missed open throws. Yeah there was some pressure...but putting 100% of the blame on the line against Houston isn't fair.

I think Fisher actually did a good job on Watt.

[*Go Cards*]

Mixon needs more time as well.

Tired of seeing him ride the stationary bike all game.

But there is no magic potion that will fix this team this season imo.

Hope I am wrong but it looks bleak and the players are already not happy.

[*Synric*]

(09-15-2017, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I always get a kick out of folks saying (fill in blank) would struggle here too with this oline, head coach, OC............

A QB is either a truck or a trailer. Your either pulling the offense or being pulled by them. We have a trailer, the elite QBs are trucks.

Because the offensive line and offensive coordinators have nothing to do with it...

I get a kick out of people saying he had a clean pocket lololol.

[*Synric*]

(09-15-2017, 01:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: See I thought the pass blocking was decent last night. Dalton missed open throws. Yeah there was some pressure...but putting 100% of the blame on the line against Houston isn't fair.

I think Fisher actually did a good job on Watt.

He missed one I said 1 wide open throw. On a timing route Lafell ran a hesitation route and then was hooked by the CB throwing off the timing. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-15-2017, 01:17 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Mixon needs more time as well.

Tired of seeing him ride the stationary bike all game.

But there is no magic potion that will fix this team this season imo.

Hope I am wrong but it looks bleak and the players are already not happy.

See I'm conflicted with playing him more. The line is terrible run blocking and he's just going to get beat up and develop bad habits.

I actually think they're doing well not throwing him to the wolves.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2017, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I always get a kick out of folks saying (fill in blank) would struggle here too with this oline, head coach, OC............

A QB is either a truck or a trailer. Your either pulling the offense or being pulled by them. We have a trailer, the elite QBs are trucks.

There are about 5 trucks, and even those tend to slow down when the situation isn't right.

(09-15-2017, 01:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes.

ALMOST everyone saw it; including those calling the game.

Yeah, you've always agreed with experts, right? Even the ones that have been calling out Lewis for 10 years. 

I get it though. Dalton = scapegoat. Just like Palmer before him. We just have real shit luck with QB's. Maybe the next one will get it done for Mikey/Marvin.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-15-2017, 01:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: See I thought the pass blocking was decent last night. Dalton missed open throws. Yeah there was some pressure...but putting 100% of the blame on the line against Houston isn't fair.

I think Fisher actually did a good job on Watt.

There were no running lanes and Dalton was throwing on the run or very quickly often. They were not that good. 

The rookie in Jax Cam Robinson did much better than that against JJ Watt. 

But there was no talent in this years draft to help OL. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-15-2017, 01:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There are about 5 trucks, and even those tend to slow down when the situation isn't right.


Yeah, you've always agreed with experts, right? Even the ones that have been calling out Lewis for 10 years. 

Well I did say ALMOST everyone saw it.

Sure Marvin should be fired. We missed the playoffs last year and we are currently 0-2. I was just one of the rarer ones that didn't think he should be fired while he was getting us to the playoffs every year.  

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2017, 01:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I did say ALMOST everyone saw it.

Sure Marvin should be fired. We missed the playoffs last year and we are currently 0-2. I was just one of the rarer ones that didn't think he should be fired while he was losing in the playoffs every year.  

FIFY

[fozzie11]

in my opinion Dalton isn't the problem, but he also isn't the solution. we need to fix the oline, but for the first time since dalton was drafted i looked at QB prospects and, to be honest if we were gonna make a change, this is the year to do it. the top 4 QB prospects are more talented than any of the QB's drafted last year, and if we moved on it would be the lowest hit to the cap.

[Bengalsrob]

I'm not sure if we should fire Marvin and the whole staff immediately or keep them around to help us tank out the season; they're our best shot to secure a high first round pick. Unfortunately, Marvin isn't even good at tanking, he'll find a way to win just enough games to slot us in the draft in the 8-10 range, and probably get him yet another extension.