At what point will fans admit we're rebuilding?

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2017, 08:39 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: They drafted replacements for each & every one of those players you've listed. They even signed some decent Free Agents in Minter & Lafell as replacements, too. All of them have worked out to a certain degree except for the Oline.

The Oline doesn't look that much different than they did a year ago, so I'm not sure how much losing Whit & Z have really hurt. Yeah they were the best two blockers, but that doesn't say much for a unit that looks exactly the same. Perhaps there wouldn't be quite as much pressure coming through had one or both re signed but let's not forget, they still gave up a ton of pressure last year even with those two here.

Anthony Munoz seems sold on Cedric being capable. So let's hope the problems we've seen these past two seasons have more to do with schematics than it does ability.

If the success rate for 1st Round draft picks is 50%...then why not sign some proven free agents? Instead they drafted 2 tackles that flopped.

We have other issues on the team at LB and some other spots that just get hidden because Geno is so dominant. Guys like Vigil aren't that good at this point.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2017, 07:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So we need 4 offensive lineman and a QB and a new coaching staff.

Yeah...doesn't sound like rebuilding to me.

Let's start with a new LT, C, and OL coach and see where we are from there. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-15-2017, 12:29 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I don't see us as a rebuilding team. I see us as more of a falling apart team.

^This^ all the way

M&M haven't built anything to begin with, not really. It's just a shame that the great players on this team have to suffer through this misery.

[HarleyDog]

Most NFL teams don't rebuild, they progress. If a rebuild is needed, you change the foundation in which your building upon. As long as Marvin is at the helm, we are not rebuilding. We are patching and making excuses and creating fall guys! The entire coaching unit needs fired. When we do this? We will start to rebuild. Yet, until this happens? Don't let yourself be fooled into buying what MB is selling.

[BenZoo2]

(09-15-2017, 12:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Over the past 2 free agency periods we lost a bunch of experienced, quality starters.

1 ) Jones - Starting WR2
2 ) Sanu - Quality WR3
3 ) Nelson - Starting Safety and great against the pass
4 ) Whitworth - Starting LT, perennial Pro Bowl player, and Team Leader
5 ) Zeitler - Starting Guard - Nearing Pro Bowl caliber
6 ) Peko - Team leader and run stuffer
7 ) Maualuga - Run stuffing LB but terrible against the pass
8 ) Leon Hall - Good CB with experience who was used to cover mainly slot receivers his last year here.
9 ) Dansby
10 ) Lamur
11 ) Andre Smith when he was starting RT. (He came back as a backup G.) When he was our starting Tackle...he was pretty good.
12 ) Burkhead

The 1st wave of losses pushed us down to a 6.5 win team. Then we lost our 2 best offensive lineman this past offseason and so far are 0-2.

We don't really sign more than bargain bin free agents so these guys weren't replaced much there. Lafell was a good signing. Minter appears to be.

Then our drafts haven't been producing a lot of impact. In time they may, but they haven't produced enough impact to negate these losses.

Plain and simple we're rebuilding. On offense alone we need 4 starting caliber lineman. Possible a starting TE depending on Eifert. On defense, we may need upgrades at DT, DE, and LB.

Probably too many holes to fix in one offseason...especially since we only sign bargain bin free agents.

All these losses were not critical.  I am glad some of them were not brought back.
Jones.  It was rumored the bengals matched.  He chose to leave.
Sanu.  Overpaid gadget player.  Hasn't set Atlanta on fire.
Nelson.  Was still playing well.  Was still looking for a big contract.  We had resigned Iloka and Williams.    I don't have a problem with the decision.
Whitworth.  I would have tagged him for this year.  I think Mikey wasn't going to stand in his way of that contract.  It seems most on year didn't want whit resigned at that deal.
Zeitler was payed like the greatest guard ever.  He's not.  He went to a bad team with lots of cap space who overpayed to get him.
Peko was slow and getting almost no interior pressure.  Lots on here wanted him gone.
Rey. See Peko above, coverage liability.
Leon hall, meh.  Was a great player for us.  Age and injuries caught up.  No real loss IMHO 
Dansby.  Was a great player.  Wish we had him earlier.  Seemed a step slow last year.
Lamur.  Was this really a big loss?

Andre smith.  Didn't a lot of folks around here want him gone?  Didn't want him resigned?
Burkhead.  I like him.  Not for 3.5 mil.  Not with Gio here.

Signing only bargain bin outside free agents is an issue.  Scouting, developing and coaching seems to be an issue in some areas.  Looking at you paulie.  Head coaching, pfft.  Not to mention the brain drain we've had with coordinators.

The problems are at the uppermost levels of the organization.

[Sweetness]

I think the main issue is the coaching staff, not the players. Minus the Oline.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-15-2017, 12:29 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I don't see us as a rebuilding team. I see us as more of a falling apart team.

This is why I was so mad last  season when we were drafting for future. 

It was obvious our window of opportunity was closing with a good squad. 

Oh well, we are the Bengals and I should expect the kick in the sack from FO. 

Yet I fall for it more than Lucy gets Charlie Brown with the oh pull the football away trick. 

[Hammerstripes]

I've said it in other threads, and I'll say it here. This team is a good coach and staff and a good offseason away from being fixed.

Even if you keep Dalton, then you draft a new LT and a C. That would make a world of difference . The defense is in good shape and the offense has some great players at the skill spots.

[BenZoo2]

(09-17-2017, 12:20 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I've said it in other threads, and I'll say it here.  This team is a good coach and staff and a good offseason away from being fixed.

Even if you keep Dalton, then you draft a new LT and a C.  That would make a world of difference .  The defense is in good shape and the offense has some great players at the skill spots.

I agree.  I think Marvin is finally growing stale with the players. 

[grampahol]

You know everything about the league has been compromised for TV ratings, right? If the Cincinnati market generated enough TV revenue we'd win playoff games on a regular basis, but we don't so we don't.. Pretty simple arithmetic when you get right down to it. 
Every sport around the globe is corrupt to the core, but none in the US despite NO laws prohibiting it? I find that just a tad too much to swallow. 

[Gohards]

(09-17-2017, 01:15 AM)grampahol Wrote: You know everything about the league has been compromised for TV ratings, right? If the Cincinnati market generated enough TV revenue we'd win playoff games on a regular basis, but we don't so we don't.. Pretty simple arithmetic when you get right down to it. 
Every sport around the globe is corrupt to the core, but none in the US despite NO laws prohibiting it? I find that just a tad too much to swallow. 

Disagree. The NFL is designed for everybody to go 8-8. Thats why the team in last place gets the first draft pick.

Market size is more critical to MLB teams, thats why I dont think the Reds will ever be good again.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-17-2017, 12:06 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: All these losses were not critical.  I am glad some of them were not brought back.
Jones.  It was rumored the bengals matched.  He chose to leave.
Sanu.  Overpaid gadget player.  Hasn't set Atlanta on fire.
Nelson.  Was still playing well.  Was still looking for a big contract.  We had resigned Iloka and Williams.    I don't have a problem with the decision.
Whitworth.  I would have tagged him for this year.  I think Mikey wasn't going to stand in his way of that contract.  It seems most on year didn't want whit resigned at that deal.
Zeitler was payed like the greatest guard ever.  He's not.  He went to a bad team with lots of cap space who overpayed to get him.
Peko was slow and getting almost no interior pressure.  Lots on here wanted him gone.
Rey. See Peko above, coverage liability.
Leon hall, meh.  Was a great player for us.  Age and injuries caught up.  No real loss IMHO 
Dansby.  Was a great player.  Wish we had him earlier.  Seemed a step slow last year.
Lamur.  Was this really a big loss?

Andre smith.  Didn't a lot of folks around here want him gone?  Didn't want him resigned?
Burkhead.  I like him.  Not for 3.5 mil.  Not with Gio here.

Signing only bargain bin outside free agents is an issue.  Scouting, developing and coaching seems to be an issue in some areas.  Looking at you paulie.  Head coaching, pfft.  Not to mention the brain drain we've had with coordinators.

The problems are at the uppermost levels of the organization.

Another thing that Bengals fans do is look at what a guy got paid in free agency and if they got paid more than fans think they should have...assume that the loss wouldn't hurt us.

The salary cap rises by about $10 million a season. That means an $8 million contract in 2012 is about the same as a $12 million contract now.

Would you have paid Zeitler $8 million a year in 2012?

You can have your cap space...but the losses of Zeitler, Whitworth, Nelson, etc definitely hurt the team. Now we're probably a 4 win team.

This team hasn't won a single playoff game since modern free agency began in 1992.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-17-2017, 12:35 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I agree.  I think Marvin is finally growing stale with the players. 

For the 2nd time.

[BengalChris]

(09-15-2017, 12:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Over the past 2 free agency periods we lost a bunch of experienced, quality starters.

1 ) Jones - Starting WR2
2 ) Sanu - Quality WR3
3 ) Nelson - Starting Safety and great against the pass
4 ) Whitworth - Starting LT, perennial Pro Bowl player, and Team Leader
5 ) Zeitler - Starting Guard - Nearing Pro Bowl caliber
6 ) Peko - Team leader and run stuffer
7 ) Maualuga - Run stuffing LB but terrible against the pass
8 ) Leon Hall - Good CB with experience who was used to cover mainly slot receivers his last year here.
9 ) Dansby
10 ) Lamur
11 ) Andre Smith when he was starting RT. (He came back as a backup G.) When he was our starting Tackle...he was pretty good.
12 ) Burkhead

The 1st wave of losses pushed us down to a 6.5 win team. Then we lost our 2 best offensive lineman this past offseason and so far are 0-2.

We don't really sign more than bargain bin free agents so these guys weren't replaced much there. Lafell was a good signing. Minter appears to be.

Then our drafts haven't been producing a lot of impact. In time they may, but they haven't produced enough impact to negate these losses.

Plain and simple we're rebuilding. On offense alone we need 4 starting caliber lineman. Possible a starting TE depending on Eifert. On defense, we may need upgrades at DT, DE, and LB.

Probably too many holes to fix in one offseason...especially since we only sign bargain bin free agents.

I don't know about Maualuga or Peko on that list, both were two steps slow last season. But you do have a point.

It isn't really when do the fans admit the team is rebuilding, but when does the team admit it to itself?

The front office just isn't as smart as it thinks it is when it comes to personnel. Whit, if the team had tried to resign him, would still be the best OLman on this team. Who gives a rats arse what his age is when he's getting the job done.

Getting younger on defense is not a bad thing. Letting a pro-bowler like Reggie Nelson go for average money to sign a younger guy who isn't as good was not a good move.

Passing on better defensive players in the draft to take a speed guy in the top 10 who can't beat out an undrafted FA in the depth chart was a classic "swinging for the fences" move that reminds me of Mike Brown's desperation moves of the 90s. Maybe Ross will pan out, maybe he won't. We all see Ross' film from college, but that was college and the NFL plays a much faster and harder hitting brand of the game. I know it's too early to even begin to grade the draft, but the Ross pick so much reminds me of the Og pick two years ago.

Going into a season with a suspect OL is one of the signs for me that the front office really isn't about winning. You just cannot go all the way in this league with a weak OL and ours got weaker during the off-season.

Ogbuehi and Fisher may end up being no better than they were last season. This is a real possibility the team didn't take into account, even after they both put up sizeable F's last season. Instead the team went "all-in" on Og and Fisher by not offering Whit a decent contract.

[BenZoo2]

(09-17-2017, 02:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Another thing that Bengals fans do is look at what a guy got paid in free agency and if they got paid more than fans think they should have...assume that the loss wouldn't hurt us.

The salary cap rises by about $10 million a season. That means an $8 million contract in 2012 is about the same as a $12 million contract now.

Would you have paid Zeitler $8 million a year in 2012?

You can have your cap space...but the losses of Zeitler, Whitworth, Nelson, etc definitely hurt the team. Now we're probably a 4 win team.

This team hasn't won a single playoff game since modern free agency began in 1992.

You have to look at what players who leave in free agency get paid. How can you not?  Burkhead didn't project as a bell cow type back in the nfl.  We already extended Gio.  Go look at what all those players signed for.  Factor in the players we want to extend like burfict and eifert.  Where does all this cap space come from?


And I don't want cap space, I want it used to its fullest potential.  If we resigned whit, Zeitler and Nelson then you're griping about other guys we can't resign.  When Nelson and whit fall off due to age then we'd be screwed.  They need to scout and development better.

I am well aware of the playoff record under Mikey.  

[BengalChris]

(09-15-2017, 12:29 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I don't see us as a rebuilding team. I see us as more of a falling apart team.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Here's what Mike Brown thinks of the situation:

[THE PISTONS]

(09-17-2017, 05:44 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: You have to look at what players who leave in free agency get paid. How can you not?  Burkhead didn't project as a bell cow type back in the nfl.  We already extended Gio.  Go look at what all those players signed for.  Factor in the players we want to extend like burfict and eifert.  Where does all this cap space come from?


And I don't want cap space, I want it used to its fullest potential.  If we resigned whit, Zeitler and Nelson then you're griping about other guys we can't resign.  When Nelson and whit fall off due to age then we'd be screwed.  They need to scout and development better.

I am well aware of the playoff record under Mikey.  

Just because a guy gets paid a lot in free agency doesn't mean him leaving will improve the team. Like we had a bad line and lost our 2 best players and people seemed to think it would improve because they thought the guys got overpaid.

The Bengals will not reinvest the savings in upgrading those positions. They bank it.

The NFL is not a sport where you can be cheap and win. It just isn't. The Steelers and Patriots won a lot of Super Bowls...and neither are cheap.

Many of the teams are owned by millionaires and billionaires that just want to win championships for a feather in their cap. They made their money in other ventures. The Bengals are ran as a family business that is the sole source of income for the family. That's a huge difference.

[BenZoo2]

(09-17-2017, 06:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Just because a guy gets paid a lot in free agency doesn't mean him leaving will improve the team. Like we had a bad line and lost our 2 best players and people seemed to think it would improve because they thought the guys got overpaid.

The Bengals will not reinvest the savings in upgrading those positions. They bank it.

The NFL is not a sport where you can be cheap and win. It just isn't. The Steelers and Patriots won a lot of Super Bowls...and neither are cheap.

Many of the teams are owned by millionaires and billionaires that just want to win championships for a feather in their cap. They made their money in other ventures. The Bengals are ran as a family business that is the sole source of income for the family. That's a huge difference.

I'm not sure if these are points you are trying to make or if you're putting words in my mouth.  So I'll try and be clear here.

I never said anything about how much a guy's gets paid to leave the team improves our team.  Your post made it seem like the bengals let go of 12 all pros.  They didn't.  I don't think Zeitler was worth the money.  Maybe you do.  They could have gone for someone like Ronald leary or someone similar. 

My biggest gripe about the bengals since I've been on these boards has been cheapness.  In free agency, in scouting, coaching, whatever. 

I never said anything about being cheap and winning.  No need to lecture me on how the nfl works, I think I get it.

I have made that last point dozens of times about the Browns family business being football and not a hobby for them.

We are actually, for the most part, on the same page.  I just didn't totally buy in on your list of players.  They're bigger issues in this organization than some of those guys. 

[THE PISTONS]

Anyone want to jump on the 'We're Rebuilding!' bandwagon?

We need 4 new offensive lineman, a TE, maybe a DT, a MLB as Minter is a free agent and mediocre, a CB, and possibly safeties.

[THE PISTONS]

Anyone want to jump on the 'We're Rebuilding!' bandwagon YET?

We need 4 new offensive lineman, a TE, maybe a DT, a MLB as Minter is a free agent, Vigil looks mediocre, and WR's outside of AJ Green look bad.