Are Refs Fixing games.

[grampahol]

(09-22-2017, 03:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: No laws prohibiting it? It would fall under various parts of racketeering based on what would need to be done to keep it quiet. With the size and scope the whole league, and every owner, would be subject to RICO prosecution too.

Nope! Sorry. It's entertainment and what boils down to the same as artistic license and not subjected to the same rules us mere mortals are subjected to.  Try filing a complaint about the next movie you watch and tell the judge that it's fixed and the script doesn't reflect enough honesty.

I will say that the league wants it both ways, rules and regulations, but not them..

[BMK]

I'm going to take a different point of view.......The NFL isn't rigged or scripted. Refs don't hold a meeting before the game with some NFL exec to find out who's supposed to win that day.

I can't wait for the Bengals to finally win a couple of playoff games which will make all this nonsense stop. The day is quickly approaching that in Pgh, Ben will retire, Bell will be gone, etc and they will slip into mediocrity for a while. At the same time, the Bengals will have a new coaching staff, new attitude and focus and trade places with the steelers.....and then all the talk of games being fixed, the league not wanting us to win, the refs let all the other teams cheat when we play them, blah blah blah, will miraculously disappear.

The thing I don't understand is if you truly believe the league is fixed, then you have to also believe the Bengals players are in on it. In 2015 we had the playoff game won.  The ONLY possible explanation for the actions of Hill, Burfict, etc at that point in the game is that they were told on the sideline that "the wrong team is winning...we're running out of time, fix it"....so they did.  

So my question is, if you know the league is scripted or fixed, and that the Bengals have to be in on it, why on earth would you invest the time and emotion on them? Or do you believe everyone else is in on it, except the Bengals? Or do you believe the Bengal players, after spending most of their lives competing and training to be in the NFL,  know and accept that they have no choice but to lose to certain teams.....oh and keep it all a big secret?

It's all pretty ridiculous. There's ALWAYS going to be bad calls. It's a fast game. As of last week, the steelers were the 1st or 2nd most penalized team in the NFL...weird stat for a so called "favored", big market team. (I believe the Pittsburgh market is equal to or smaller than Cincinnati.) BTW, I only use Pit as a reference point because, well, everyone else here seems to.

The NFL isn't rigged, for the same reason many here say that it is...money. Imagine all the bazillions of dollars of sponsorship money and tv money that would bolt if it came out that the league was determining or influencing games. And it's pretty standard contract language that allows any sponsor or network to do so under those circumstances.  Nike, Pepsi, All the car makers, etc.etc, etc would be gone in a heartbeat. The only channel you could watch games on would be the NFL channel, but why bother if you already know that the game has a pre-determined outcome?  Plenty of things more worthwhile to do.

Just my humble opinion.

[sandwedge]

I can't say it's predetermined who wins, but I believe the refs control the flow of the game. To many times you see stuff just go unnoticed and then at crucial points of the game, wham a penalty is called. Our beloved Andrew Whitworth would put DEs in headlocks and get away with it, but crunch time he'd called for it.

[BengalsBong]

The instant replay person should be from a state that has no NFL teams in it and never will have due to low population and hold the replay in that state keep it out of New York. The replay person making the calls should not be a football fan.

[Au165]

(09-22-2017, 03:42 PM)grampahol Wrote: Nope! Sorry. It's entertainment and what boils down to the same as artistic license and not subjected to the same rules us mere mortals are subjected to.  Try filing a complaint about the next movie you watch and tell the judge that it's fixed and the script doesn't reflect enough honesty.

I will say that the league wants it both ways, rules and regulations, but not them..

Again, that is a weird conspiracy thing floating around that isn't true. Without them specifically disclaiming after each game that the results of the gamer were predetermined they would be subject to racketeering charges based on the money being spent on tickets as well as the money exchanged in Vegas on said games. The WWE very clearly spells out that they are a "show", and it is reasonable to assume movies are. The NFL portrays the games as true competitions and therefor they are legally obligated to provide that.

[grampahol]

Well let's construct a scenario in which the entire team and every official is NOT in on the fix. How can this be done? 
Players are public figures and not immune to scandal. It wouldn't take much to get some dirt on any given player, coach or official. Find out they're cheating on a spouse or their taxes or have been involved in any kind of illegal activities that can be proven. Hell, there's any number of ways to compromise anyone in the league. It happens all around the world and US sports leagues are in no way immune from it.
A QB knows he's been caught with his dick in the wrong woman or even man.. Toss an INT and we'll forget all about it. 
The league has it's own security apparatus that isn't reportable to the public at large, just to the league big wigs. There's nothing to say they don't engage in internal espionage of various teams, player, coaches or even team owners. 
Hell, for years the NFL got away with not paying taxes claiming to be a non profit until public pressure got the better of that scam. 
You do realize that an unholy number of players have been in prison or otherwise in trouble with the police including several Bengals players past and present and that isn't exclusive to this team. Several get caught up in legal issues and often those problems just seem to go away in the night as if by magic. Somebody is getting them their get out of jail free cards and those cards come with a price and not just out of their salaries. 
There are just too many ways to corrupt people in the public eye that don't make the headlines. Somehow as if by magic the NFL is immune to it all? 

[Au165]

(09-22-2017, 04:10 PM)grampahol Wrote: Well let's construct a scenario in which the entire team and every official is NOT in on the fix. How can this be done? 
Players are public figures and not immune to scandal. It wouldn't take much to get some dirt on any given player, coach or official. Find out they're cheating on a spouse or their taxes or have been involved in any kind of illegal activities that can be proven. Hell, there's any number of ways to compromise anyone in the league. It happens all around the world and US sports leagues are in no way immune from it.
A QB knows he's been caught with his dick in the wrong woman or even man.. Toss an INT and we'll forget all about it. 
The league has it's own security apparatus that isn't reportable to the public at large, just to the league big wigs. There's nothing to say they don't engage in internal espionage of various teams, player, coaches or even team owners. 
Hell, for years the NFL got away with not paying taxes claiming to be a non profit until public pressure got the better of that scam. 
You do realize that an unholy number of players have been in prison or otherwise in trouble with the police including several Bengals players past and present and that isn't exclusive to this team. Several get caught up in legal issues and often those problems just seem to go away in the night as if by magic. Somebody is getting them their get out of jail free cards and those cards come with a price and not just out of their salaries. 
There are just too many ways to corrupt people in the public eye that don't make the headlines. Somehow as if by magic the NFL is immune to it all? 

You're reaching sorry. Could a single "Lone Wolf" influence a game? Sure. You however wanted to wonder down the road that the league was fixed before, even proclaiming there were no laws against it. There are laws against it and they would be held accountable. In the end the reason most conspiracy theories fall apart still applies here, how do you keep anything from leaking? We live in a social media age where hacks occur constantly and people can hide behind anonymity on the internet, so getting away with these things today would be very difficult. Did they happen in the past? Possibly, but as for them going on today? Doubtful.

[grampahol]

(09-22-2017, 03:54 PM)Au165 Wrote: Again, that is a weird conspiracy thing floating around that isn't true. Without them specifically disclaiming after each game that the results of the gamer were predetermined they would be subject to racketeering charges based on the money being spent on tickets as well as the money exchanged in Vegas on said games. The WWE very clearly spells out that they are a "show", and it is reasonable to assume movies are. The NFL portrays the games as true competitions and therefor they are legally obligated to provide that.

They don't have to disclaim anything as long as they acknowledge it's for entertainment purposes and they have done just that even to the highest court in the land and won.. Now you as a fan can believe anything you want. You can believe that touchdown fairies inhabit Tom Brady's head if you want, but what you can't prove is that the league is above reproach and has never engaged in game fixing when it's perfectly legal AND there's a huge body of evidence showing that they do engage in it. 

[grampahol]

I'm not about to deny that I reach occasionally to make a point. Lawyers do it all the time to influence juries and many a poor sucker has gone off to die in prison over someone reaching to make a point. Politicians do it all the time and young men and women go off to die in wars because someone is reaching or flat out lying to the public. We've been at war since before many of you were even born over a bunch of lies and exaggerations and somehow I, some old man who watches the same game you watch am reaching because I think the league is fixed? I watch football for the entertainment and NOT because I think it's all above board and pure as the driven snow like some of you.  

[Au165]

(09-22-2017, 04:17 PM)grampahol Wrote: They don't have to disclaim anything as long as they acknowledge it's for entertainment purposes and they have done just that even to the highest court in the land and won.. Now you as a fan can believe anything you want. You can believe that touchdown fairies inhabit Tom Brady's head if you want, but what you can't prove is that the league is above reproach and has never engaged in game fixing when it's perfectly legal AND there's a huge body of evidence showing that they do engage in it. 

What your claiming is simply false. It actually can be proven false by the legal brief filed in the Elliot case in terms of irreparable harm to himself and the cowboys which was the basis of the TRO being granted, but even going down that path with you is moot. Bottom line your chasing ghosts that don't exist. Lone wolf? possibly. Organized conspiracy, absolutely 0 chance.

[grampahol]

(09-22-2017, 04:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: What your claiming is simply false. It actually can be proven false by the legal brief filed in the Elliot case in terms of irreparable harm to himself and the cowboys which was the basis of the TRO being granted, but even going down that path with you is moot. Bottom line your chasing ghosts that don't exist. Lone wolf? possibly. Organized conspiracy, absolutely 0 chance.

Ok then there Binky.. It's all above board with nothing to see..move along then.. Just good wholesome entertainment played by good Christian young men above reproach.. 

[Au165]

(09-22-2017, 04:47 PM)grampahol Wrote: Ok then there Binky.. It's all above board with nothing to see..move along then.. Just good wholesome entertainment played by good Christian young men above reproach.. 

No, it's a large conspiracy that infiltrates the deepest levels of the government. I actually heard it is part of a CIA program to distract the unassuming public from the state of the country.

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-22-2017, 03:49 PM)BMK Wrote: I'm going to take a different point of view.......The NFL isn't rigged or scripted. Refs don't hold a meeting before the game with some NFL exec to find out who's supposed to win that day.

I can't wait for the Bengals to finally win a couple of playoff games which will make all this nonsense stop. The day is quickly approaching that in Pgh, Ben will retire, Bell will be gone, etc and they will slip into mediocrity for a while. At the same time, the Bengals will have a new coaching staff, new attitude and focus and trade places with the steelers.....and then all the talk of games being fixed, the league not wanting us to win, the refs let all the other teams cheat when we play them, blah blah blah, will miraculously disappear.

The thing I don't understand is if you truly believe the league is fixed, then you have to also believe the Bengals players are in on it. In 2015 we had the playoff game won.  The ONLY possible explanation for the actions of Hill, Burfict, etc at that point in the game is that they were told on the sideline that "the wrong team is winning...we're running out of time, fix it"....so they did.  

So my question is, if you know the league is scripted or fixed, and that the Bengals have to be in on it, why on earth would you invest the time and emotion on them? Or do you believe everyone else is in on it, except the Bengals? Or do you believe the Bengal players, after spending most of their lives competing and training to be in the NFL,  know and accept that they have no choice but to lose to certain teams.....oh and keep it all a big secret?

It's all pretty ridiculous. There's ALWAYS going to be bad calls. It's a fast game. As of last week, the steelers were the 1st or 2nd most penalized team in the NFL...weird stat for a so called "favored", big market team. (I believe the Pittsburgh market is equal to or smaller than Cincinnati.) BTW, I only use Pit as a reference point because, well, everyone else here seems to.

The NFL isn't rigged, for the same reason many here say that it is...money. Imagine all the bazillions of dollars of sponsorship money and tv money that would bolt if it came out that the league was determining or influencing games. And it's pretty standard contract language that allows any sponsor or network to do so under those circumstances.  Nike, Pepsi, All the car makers, etc.etc, etc would be gone in a heartbeat. The only channel you could watch games on would be the NFL channel, but why bother if you already know that the game has a pre-determined outcome?  Plenty of things more worthwhile to do.

Just my humble opinion.

This is the most logical response and is most likely true.

However, I personally think the game is biased. I watched years of football without seeing Bengal games, and then years of JUST Bengal games. There is definitely a difference between the two. I usually try to chalk it up to bad luck, but sometimes the games are straight up fishy. It doesn't help that the fishy games are always against big market teams.... maybe it is just a huge coincidence...

OR

The league is determined by the amount of money teams bring in. It's pretty crazy if you look at jersey sale trends and then look at corresponding records. More often than not, the highest selling jersey teams start to rise up the charts. Drafting noteable players who can bring in those sales drive interest in the NFL, and getting these teams to win equals more sales.

-BeastMode puts Seattle on the map, all of the sudden Seattle is a big market, they have been 'good' ever since. Sherman, Wilson, Lynch, all positive dollar sales
-Cowboys draft Elliot, Elliot equals sales, Cowboys have stellar season
-Lets see what happens with Watson and the Texans... highest jersey sales since the draft? I smell a Houston playoff push
-Remember when Palmer moved to Arizona and they drafted Tyrann Mathieu, woah, suddenly sales are up and Arizona is looking like a playoff team
-Steelers are a big seller, Big Ben, AB, Bell... why not keep them up there, people will buy that shit up.
-People get excited about Carr and others at Oakland, jersey sales are up. The team is looking good. Bring in Lynch, big boost in sales, Raiders look unstoppable.
-Even with the Bengals, AJ Green and Dalton come in, jersey sales are up! Lets get them to the playoffs. As the interest in Dalton/Green and the Bengals diminished, the team is now doing much worse. They haven't drafted anyone that boosts jersey sales by a substantial amount, so no change in the output. Did any of you pick up a Ross jersey after the draft? Ya, me neither


Granted, I think all of this is highly skeptical and not true. I agree with what you said BMK, but at the same time, I don't think it's TOO farfetched to think something is up.

As for your Steelers fading and Bengals rising scenario... it depends! If the Bengals draft some high profile players who can sell jerseys, I expect the Bengals to get a bit more preferential treatment. If the Steelers land some QB who can sell jerseys (most likely will as Steeler fans will support the new QB), I expect the Steelers to stay fairly relevant. It's all market trends my friend.

[grampahol]

I doubt there's some grand conspiracy to disappoint Bengals fans and have people in Cincinnati jumping in mass into the Ohio river.. Yeah, that's far fetched, but it's simply about money, the bottom line and occasionally as in the case in NE to use the team name, Patriots as a propaganda tool for military recruitment and so on. 
I remember before 9-11 NE was an average team, not a powerhouse by any means then suddenly the term patriotism became big. I clearly remember telling people that just watch NE become a powerhouse team and win multiple super bowls because of the name..It sells and continues to sell. Names sell.
Maybe the Bengals should change names to something that sells,  hell, The Cincinnati Big Peckers! The Big Knockers ! That would sell and what guy wouldn't want his wife or girlfriend wearing a Big Knockers jersey especially if she has big knockers? lol 
That's it!  We should petition the Brown family to rename the team to the Cincinnati Big Knockers and watch us win the super bowl for the next 20 years.. 

[MrRager]

(09-22-2017, 08:49 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This is the most logical response and is most likely true.

However, I personally think the game is biased. I watched years of football without seeing Bengal games, and then years of JUST Bengal games. There is definitely a difference between the two. I usually try to chalk it up to bad luck, but sometimes the games are straight up fishy. It doesn't help that the fishy games are always against big market teams.... maybe it is just a huge coincidence...

OR

The league is determined by the amount of money teams bring in. It's pretty crazy if you look at jersey sale trends and then look at corresponding records. More often than not, the highest selling jersey teams start to rise up the charts. Drafting noteable players who can bring in those sales drive interest in the NFL, and getting these teams to win equals more sales.

-BeastMode puts Seattle on the map, all of the sudden Seattle is a big market, they have been 'good' ever since. Sherman, Wilson, Lynch, all positive dollar sales
-Cowboys draft Elliot, Elliot equals sales, Cowboys have stellar season
-Lets see what happens with Watson and the Texans... highest jersey sales since the draft? I smell a Houston playoff push
-Remember when Palmer moved to Arizona and they drafted Tyrann Mathieu, woah, suddenly sales are up and Arizona is looking like a playoff team
-Steelers are a big seller, Big Ben, AB, Bell... why not keep them up there, people will buy that shit up.
-People get excited about Carr and others at Oakland, jersey sales are up. The team is looking good. Bring in Lynch, big boost in sales, Raiders look unstoppable.
-Even with the Bengals, AJ Green and Dalton come in, jersey sales are up! Lets get them to the playoffs. As the interest in Dalton/Green and the Bengals diminished, the team is now doing much worse. They haven't drafted anyone that boosts jersey sales by a substantial amount, so no change in the output. Did any of you pick up a Ross jersey after the draft? Ya, me neither


Granted, I think all of this is highly skeptical and not true. I agree with what you said BMK, but at the same time, I don't think it's TOO farfetched to think something is up.

As for your Steelers fading and Bengals rising scenario... it depends! If the Bengals draft some high profile players who can sell jerseys, I expect the Bengals to get a bit more preferential treatment. If the Steelers land some QB who can sell jerseys (most likely will as Steeler fans will support the new QB), I expect the Steelers to stay fairly relevant. It's all market trends my friend.

I think this is a bit chicken and the egg here though. I don't think the NFL is pushing the teams with those players to win, but good players just sell more jerseys. The NFL didn't see the Elliot jersey sales and skew the results in their favor, but Elliot is just a great running back with a great oline who paired with a great young QB. Same with Oakland. Carr wasn't selling jerseys like crazy his rookie year, he started selling after he broke out. And now he is a good player so it elevates the team and good players sell jerseys. You're looking too much into the jersey stuff. 

[Butchie Tiger]

NFL - NO
NBA - YES ( obvious refs fix games )

[El guapo]

I hate when the Bengals play the Steelers because you just know there's going to be some bullcrap call that's going to change the game in favor of the Steelers.

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

[BMK]

(09-23-2017, 12:01 AM)El guapo Wrote: I hate when the Bengals play the Steelers because you just know there's going to be some bullcrap call that's going to change the game in favor of the Steelers.

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

Right, because as everyone here knows, the ONLY reason the Bengals ever lose a game is because:

1. The refs hate us
2. The league hates us
3. The Pope hates us
4. We don't buy enough Andy Dalton shirts
5. All the other teams cheat
6. Our name sucks  (yet 'steelers' doesn't?)
7. The announcers hate us
8. ??????

But all is not lost.....apparently, all we have to do is buy more stuff, and everything changes!

[packerbacker]

Watching the Steelers Vikings game last week I was of course rooting for Pittsburgh as I hate the Vikes as a GB fan but after some very questionable calls on Minnesota I started rooting for them. It was like Pittsburgh is getting some favorable calls.

[TKUHL]

So...I guess nobody found another angle of that PI play?