Daltons Pocket Presence

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 04:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh...there is a pocket on most plays. When there is he made bad decisions in games 1 and 2.

I wouldn't say most plays, but Dalton definitely has developed a problem of sensing pressure when none is there.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Teams have shown you can win a Super Bowl with an above average QB AND you can not win a Super Bowl with an elite QB. If you have an above average QB, then your focus should be on improving the areas of weakness on your team with the goal to win a Super Bowl.

One of Mike Brown's problem throughout the 90s was he was always looking for that franchise QB, instead of taking advantage of the above average QBs he had (for example, Jeff Blake).


I'd consider good QB play to have a QB rating of 90 or more and a below average QB play to have a QB rating under 80. Dalton has 46 games with a QB rating of 90 or more and 36 games with a QB rating of less than 80. Add the 14 games he's had a rating between 80 and 90 and Dalton has been average-to-great more often than half a season.

I'm not opposed to drafting the next franchise QB this offseason, but let's not rewrite history to make Dalton out to be worse than he has been.

It's rare for a team to win a SB with an above average QB. Really rare. You have to have a historic defense to do that basically and a dominant RB. Really Flacco is the only guy on that list that I'd consider not a top 7-8 QB in the league...and he caught fire in the playoffs.

The last SB winners going back to 2003: Brady, Manning, Eli Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, and Russell Wilson.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2017, 04:16 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I wouldn't say most plays, but Dalton definitely has developed a problem of sensing pressure when none is there.

My knock on Dalton is a guy like Roethlisberger or Rodgers when the play breaks down and gets to 5-6-7 seconds...they know no DB can stay with the receiver that long and burn you.

Dalton flings the ball into the stands.

At some point he became a game manager QB...but we don't have the running game that a game manager needs to win!

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 04:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's rare for a team to win a SB with an above average QB. Really rare. You have to have a historic defense to do that basically and a dominant RB. Really Flacco is the only guy on that list that I'd consider not a top 7-8 QB in the league...and he caught fire in the playoffs.

The last SB winners going back to 2003: Brady, Manning, Eli Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, and Russell Wilson.

I would not consider Eli, Flacco or Wilson to be elite QBs, but rather above average QBs. So, i wouldn't say it's "really rare" for an above average QB to win a Super Bowl. 

(09-26-2017, 04:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: My knock on Dalton is a guy like Roethlisberger or Rodgers when the play breaks down and gets to 5-6-7 seconds...they know no DB can stay with the receiver that long and burn you.

Dalton flings the ball into the stands.

How many of his receivers are open, though? And how many INTs did that lead to PRIOR to 2015 when he WOULD try to throw to receivers on the run?

[THE PISTONS]

Andy Dalton: 16.6 Total QBR. Despite a solid effort against the Packers, Dalton still owns the worst Total QBR at 16.5. It might not get better anytime soon. The Bengals' next two games are at Cleveland, where Dalton has a career 36.1 Total QBR, and then home against the Bills, who have allowed the fewest points per game this season.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 04:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Andy Dalton: 16.6 Total QBR. Despite a solid effort against the Packers, Dalton still owns the worst Total QBR at 16.5. It might not get better anytime soon. The Bengals' next two games are at Cleveland, where Dalton has a career 36.1 Total QBR, and then home against the Bills, who have allowed the fewest points per game this season.

Please don't use QBR. It's a bullshit stat. And only football illiterates use it in their arguments. You're clearly not football illiterate, so your usage of QBR is confounding.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2017, 04:42 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Please don't use QBR. It's a bullshit stat. And only football illiterates use it in their arguments. You're clearly not football illiterate, so your usage of QBR is confounding.

I posted it from ESPN. They correlate QBR to Power Ranking of a team: 
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/NFLpowerrankingsx170926/nfl-2017-week-4-power-rankings-atlanta-falcons-kansas-city-chiefs-new-england-patriots-quarterbacks

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 04:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's rare for a team to win a SB with an above average QB. Really rare. You have to have a historic defense to do that basically and a dominant RB. Really Flacco is the only guy on that list that I'd consider not a top 7-8 QB in the league...and he caught fire in the playoffs.

The last SB winners going back to 2003: Brady, Manning, Eli Manning, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Flacco, and Russell Wilson.

Manning was carried to a Super Bowl by his defense and didn't even play all season his last year....his stats from that game:

"13-of-23 for 141 yards with one interception while being sacked five times, scoring his only passing points with 3:08 left in the fourth quarter when he connected with wide receiver Fowler  for a two-point conversion, which ended up being the final pass of his career."


Look at Eli Manning this year with a shit oline and only one viable weapon.  Eli is really a rich man's Dalton.  He did make some plays down the stretch, and a dude made a miracle grab off his helmet.


Russell Wilson is a mobile, slightly better version of Dalton.  Good defense and a stout run game paved his way.


Flacco, got lucky.  Another very good defense, and run game.


Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Pig Pen, and early Peyton are very rare talents.  Apples to oranges.  Interestingly enough, Pig Pen had one of the worst rated Super Bowls in history early in his career when he was carried to a title with The Bus and Steel Curtain Light.


It can be done, and is not as rare as some may think.  Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, the guys above, Jim Plunkett, Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, hell....Terry Bradshaw, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, and probably a few I am forgetting (like Elway in his last season) have all been helped immensely by good lines, good defenses, or good run games (or a combo of two or all three in some cases like the Skins).  Those guys are far from All-World.


That said, yeah, not happening here, because the dumbasses pulling the strings here don't realize this.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-26-2017, 05:00 PM)Wyche Wrote: Manning was carried to a Super Bowl by his defense and didn't even play all season his last year....his stats from that game:

"13-of-23 for 141 yards with one interception while being sacked five times, scoring his only passing points with 3:08 left in the fourth quarter when he connected with wide receiver Fowler  for a two-point conversion, which ended up being the final pass of his career."


Look at Eli Manning this year with a shit oline and only one viable weapon.  Eli is really a rich man's Dalton.  He did make some plays down the stretch, and a dude made a miracle grab off his helmet.


Russell Wilson is a mobile, slightly better version of Dalton.  Good defense and a stout run game paved his way.


Flacco, got lucky.  Another very good defense, and run game.


Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Pig Pen, and early Peyton are very rare talents.  Apples to oranges.  Interestingly enough, Pig Pen had one of the worst rated Super Bowls in history early in his career when he was carried to a title with The Bus and Steel Curtain Light.


It can be done, and is not as rare as some may think.  Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, the guys above, Jim Plunkett, Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, hell....Terry Bradshaw, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, and probably a few I am forgetting (like Elway in his last season) have all been helped immensely by good lines, good defenses, or good run games (or a combo of two or all three in some cases like the Skins).  Those guys are far from All-World.


That said, yeah, not happening here, because the dumbasses pulling the strings here don't realize this.

Plus, you need a running game too. We haven't had that in a decade.

I'd take Broncos Manning, Wilson, or Eli Manning over Dalton. No question.

While good, our defense tends to wilt in big games too. It's hard to put your finger on what causes this. Costly penalties. Giving up big runs. Etc.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 05:00 PM)Wyche Wrote: He did make some plays down the stretch

This is what has distinguished guys like Flacco, Wilson, and Eli from Dalton when it comes to primetime success.
They made a collection of critical plays when it counted and Dalton has not done so for the most part.

So moral of the story: if you aren't an elite QB, you need to make some critical plays down the stretch to achieve the ultimate goal.
Dalton has not done so, and saying he will is pure speculation and hope at this point. Evidence from the previous six seasons + three games in 2017 would give indication he likely never will.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 05:00 PM)Wyche Wrote: Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Pig Pen, and early Peyton are very rare talents. 

Luck and maybe Cam have been the only truly rare talents I can recall since 2011.
With that said, I believe Darnold is one of those rare talents for sure.
I believe there are about 2-3 others in the upcoming draft that could also be near-elite QB level too.
If there is a year to try and find that next level of QB, 2018 is it.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 05:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Plus, you need a running game too. We haven't had that in a decade.

I'd take Broncos Manning, Wilson, or Eli Manning over Dalton. No question.

While good, our defense tends to wilt in big games too. It's hard to put your finger on what causes this. Costly penalties. Giving up big runs. Etc.

Manning's last year in Denver was an abomination.

198/331 2249YDS  59.8%  9 TDs/17 INTs  67.9 RTG.

People would have crucified him here.

That was the year he "won" the Super Bowl.

I'd take Wilson, sure, but he hasn't exactly torched the league this season behind a shit oline either (believe me, I have one of his WRs in fantasy).

Bottom line, our ENTIRE team wilts in the big time....QB(s) included.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 04:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I posted it from ESPN. They correlate QBR to Power Ranking of a team: 
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/NFLpowerrankingsx170926/nfl-2017-week-4-power-rankings-atlanta-falcons-kansas-city-chiefs-new-england-patriots-quarterbacks

I know QBR is from ESPN. It's still a bullshit stat. There's a reason that only ESPN people use it. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 05:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This is what has distinguished guys like Flacco, Wilson, and Eli from Dalton when it comes to primetime success.
They made a collection of critical plays when it counted and Dalton has not done so for the most part.

So moral of the story: if you aren't an elite QB, you need to make some critical plays down the stretch to achieve the ultimate goal.
Dalton has not done so, and saying he will is pure speculation and hope at this point. Evidence from the previous six seasons + three games in 2017 would give indication he likely never will.

You can't discredit what Beast Mode did for Seattle.....or Flacco getting some timely PI calls his way, or miracle plays by wideouts for the NYG.  If you're going to glaze over those factors, then you have to acknowledge our miscues as a team.

We have missed our shots when other players made plays.  Gio fumbles, AJ drops a TD, to go along with Dalton's miscues against SD.  Pig Pen has a TERRIBLE Super Bowl, The Bus, and the defense bails him out.  The problem here, and this goes back to the Palmer days, is that no one seems to be able to bail out the QB when he has an off day.  That's a coaching/organization issue

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-26-2017, 05:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Luck and maybe Cam have been the only truly rare talents I can recall since 2011.
With that said, I believe Darnold is one of those rare talents for sure.
I believe there are about 2-3 others in the upcoming draft that could also be near-elite QB level too.
If there is a year to try and find that next level of QB, 2018 is it.

Cam Newton is not very good anymore.  Luck is hurt.  

I would consider Luck a rare talent when healthy, but he hasn't lived up to expectations either....Newton may be washed up already.  Althleticly speaking, Cam is a rare talent, but I don't think he'll cut the mustard as his legs age.  I never did.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-26-2017, 05:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Luck and maybe Cam have been the only truly rare talents I can recall since 2011.

Do you realize that Cam has almost the exact same stat line right now as Dalton? The same guy you said you would get rid of based on his current play? AND that Dalton's career stats are a little bit better than both Cam's AND Luck's?

I'm just saying they may have the potential to be elite and better than Dalton, however, so far, Dalton has outplayed both, statistically speaking.

[bengalsfansince93]

(09-26-2017, 03:52 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Wow...just wow.  This shit is getting really old.  People need to seriously quit making excuses for this bum.  He’s not won a meaningful game his entire NFL career.  Yes this year he has arguably his worst o-line but let’s not pretend that anybody  outside of kool-aid drinking Bengal fans ever talked about Andy Dalton as a good quarterback prior to this season starting.  Andy’s entire career his long ball has sucked he’s a quick passer because he’s a one read passer and when he senses pressure he panics, always has.  He has zero ability to make plays outside of the pocket and when he tucks the ball to bail on the pocket he looks very uncoordinated and is about as agile as a 400lb nose tackle. Now that Zampese is gone we can go back to solely blaming the o-line.  Rewatch any playoff game and really watch any crucial play and you’ll see Andy overthrow his receiver.  If Green wasn’t such an exceptional jump ball artist, route running extraordinaire, I doubt Andy would be on the sideline Sunday mornings carrying a clipboard.

This is so dam accurate. I couldn't have said it better myself. I've come on here for years stating that Andy was not a good QB and I was shot down many times by the Dalton supporters. They almost seemed blind to his downfalls or just wanted to deny it because he was there guy.  I find it very funny now how many of those same people have changed there tone.  I guess certain fans just couldn't see it for whatever reason.  

[*bengalfan74*]

I've been a long time AD defender. Simply because I've believed, and still do, that there are dozens of problems with this team to numerous to go into that effect all sorts of things.

Having said that I'm losing some of my Dalton defense ability, or more correctly he is. BUT:

How many times have you heard the phrase - step up in the pocket ?

Well Dalton is so used to Bodine getting shoved instantly back into his lap he's mentally written that off as an unsafe zone !!! Can he unlearn this ???

[Housh]

The lengths people are going through to defend this man are crazy lol

We’ve had a great o line for a couple seasons and Andy still choked


People are just deadset I’m acting like Dalton is a great QB. Rodgers had just as shitty an o line and got sacked a lot and still balled out



WE NEED A BETTER QB ANDY DALTON ISNT GOOD ENOUGH GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS


AJM is literally the only reason we ALMOST won a playoff game. Dalton didn’t even factor in

[thillan]

(09-26-2017, 10:50 PM)Housh Wrote: The lengths people are going through to defend this man are crazy lol

We’ve had a great o line for a couple seasons and Andy still choked


People are just deadset I’m acting like Dalton is a great QB. Rodgers had just as shitty an o line and got sacked a lot and still balled out



WE NEED A BETTER QB ANDY DALTON ISNT GOOD ENOUGH GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS


AJM is literally the only reason we ALMOST won a playoff game. Dalton didn’t even factor in

I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of Dalton, but he was seriously a contender for MVP that year. Without the injury, we had a much better chance of winning that game.

Again, I am debating cutting Andy at the end of the season, but to say 2015 Andy wasn't enough is a bit of a reach to me. He was killing it.