Defense wins Championships

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2017, 09:44 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Can Lazor and the Bengals use a different kind of running game to accomplish the same thing ? I mean it's obvious we're not gonna run between the tackles on most teams with any degree of success.

How about we just call more run plays that use the FB? Hewitt may not be Lorenzo Neal, but dude's a good blocker. He's also a decent pass catcher so we can still call pass plays from the same formations he'd be in on. I'm not saying using him will fix our rushing offense, but it surely will help, right?

[Luvnit2]

(10-11-2017, 04:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals limited by their offensive rankings.
19th in pass yards per game (227)
28th in rush yards per game (84)
23rd in total yards per game (311)
27th in points per game (16.8)

However, we should probably just consider the Lazor era only, which would be the last 3 games...
pass yards per game = 275.3
rush yards per game = 87
total yards per game = 362.3
points per game = 22.7 (I took out the points scored by the pick 6 against GB, so actually this number would be higher if going off pure PPG not just offensive PPG)

If we had those same averages across the entire season, the Bengals would be ranked....
PYPG = 5th
RYPG = 27th
TYPG = 9th
PPG = 14th

So yea, the running game definitely needs to get going but the passing game has improved a ton. Since Lazor became OC, the Bengals have had a top-10 aerial attack and middle-of-the-pack scoring. That's (much) better than I expected for this season with Zampese as OC. Worth mentioning too that these passing numbers are not inflated from the Bengals having to play catch-up either. They are while leading a vast majority during the last 3 games.

More stats to Date through Buffalo game
Defense is 16th most on the field for plays per game (middle of the pack)
YPG - 2nd (2 points per game behind Denver)
Yards per play - #1 in league at 4.2 YPP
Points (PPG) - tied for 2nd with Jags, Buffalo #1
T.O.P. - 20th This is an area an offense needs to help out. Obviously the lack of a good running game is not helping T.O.P.
3rd Down Efficiency - Tied for 6th at 36%

Everything so far points to a great defensive year, but as others have said and I agree, our run game has to get better. We also need for a #2 or #3 receiver to emerge after th bye week. On defense, it is very encouraging we added some speed with Lawson and Willis to go with Dunlap and Geno. Our DL rotation has been awesome so far. MJ's move to more snaps at the DT position proved his versatility and why he is an important role player on the team.

Also, don't forget, Burfict only played in 2 of the 5 games. 

I love our defense, I did after the draft and they have shown great improvement in 2017 versus 2016.

But again, to win in November and December, we have to figure out a way to run the ball. I am hopeful Ross can get healthy and play significant snaps producing big plays as the season rolls on. If so much like the Chiefs, the safeties will have no choice but to respect the speed of AJ and Ross and risky for them to crowd the L.O.S. to stop the run.

[Luvnit2]

(10-12-2017, 10:37 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm not so sure the Defense Wins Championships phrase holds weight any more. There have been too many rule changes in the NFL. It's an offensive league.

Broncos defense just won one. Manning and the Denver offense sucked, yet they won it all.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-12-2017, 12:48 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Broncos defense just won one. Manning and the Denver offense sucked, yet they won it all.

They rushed for  1718 yards as a team at 4.2 ypc.

They passed for 3970 yards.

5,688 total yards. That's not exactly an inept offense. I'd consider it a capable one with a great defense.

[Luvnit2]

(10-12-2017, 12:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They rushed for  1718 yards as a team at 4.2 ypc.

They passed for 3970 yards.

5,688 total yards. That's not exactly an inept offense. I'd consider it a capable one with a great defense.

You forgot their playoff offensive stats. I was referring to how they performed in the playoffs and especially in the Super Bowl. The offense of the Broncos was tanking late in the year after a great start.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-12-2017, 12:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You forgot their playoff offensive stats. I was referring to how they performed in the playoffs and especially in the Super Bowl. The offense of the Broncos was tanking late in the year after a great start.

They had 503 yards against San Diego in Week 17.
390 against us in Week 16.
385 against Pittsburgh in Week 15.

324 against Pittsburgh in the 1st Round of the Playoffs. (0 TO's)
244 against NE in the AFC Championship Game. (1 TO)
194 against Carolina in the playoffs. (2 TO's)

Their offense was highly capable all year and had bad games in the championship game and Super Bowl. The big thing is they didn't turn the ball over 3-4 times too. They forced a lot of TO's on defense though.

[Luvnit2]

(10-12-2017, 01:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They had 503 yards against San Diego in Week 17.
390 against us in Week 16.
385 against Pittsburgh in Week 15.

324 against Pittsburgh in the 1st Round of the Playoffs. (0 TO's)
244 against NE in the AFC Championship Game. (1 TO)
194 against Carolina in the playoffs. (2 TO's)

Their offense was highly capable all year and had bad games in the championship game and Super Bowl. The big thing is they didn't turn the ball over 3-4 times too.

Like I said, the Super Bowl.

They had 306 yards, 4 turnovers, rushed for only 27 yards (yes 27 yards) and averaged 1.92 yards per carry.

Offense helped then get there, but defense bailed them out against Chargers and Seahawks.

Let it sink it 4 turnovers, 306 yards and a running game that produced 1.92 yards a carry and grand total of 27 yards,

Defense won the championship, it is clear as day.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-12-2017, 01:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Like I said, the Super Bowl.

They had 306 yards, 4 turnovers, rushed for only 27 yards (yes 27 yards) and averaged 1.92 yards per carry.

Offense helped then get there, but defense bailed them out against Chargers and Seahawks.

Let it sink it 4 turnovers, 306 yards and a running game that produced 1.92 yards a carry and grand total of 27 yards,

Defense won the championship, it is clear as day.

I don't think anyone disputes that a great defense can win 1 game or bail a team out...but can it lead a team that can't run the ball to the deep playoffs is the question?

[Luvnit2]

(10-12-2017, 01:09 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't think anyone disputes that a great defense can win 1 game or bail a team out...but can it lead a team that can't run the ball to the deep playoffs is the question?

If our defense only gave up 8 points in any playoff game we played, we would have never lost a playoff game. Our defense has never been good enough to overcome 4 turnovers, maybe this year they can be but early so time will tell. They did just overcome 3 turnovers against a very good Bill's defense.

I don't disagree a running game is important piece, no dispute there, but Broncos thrashed Seattle with no running game and 4 turnovers. Denver simply stopped them from scoring with great defense and causing a boat load of penalties by the Denver defense.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-11-2017, 08:05 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How many times you heard that ? Thousands for sure, and I think there's a good bit of truth in it. Right now we have the #2 defense in yards. #2 defense against the pass, and we're 2nd in sacks with 18. It's a passing league right ?

We've got a pretty good defense ! I'd say it's pretty safe to say we'll end up the season in the top ten in the league, perhaps in top 5 ? Lawson is coming on strong as a force in the pass rush. Geno has 4 sacks, and a pleasant surprise is MJ playing in the interior with 3 ! Burfict is all over the place, Vigil is developing.

I believe this defense is only going to improve as the offense starts getting it together and staying on the field longer.

Question is, is this defense good enough to carry this team through the offensive struggles that still I'm pretty sure lie ahead ?

Can this team really reach the playoffs ?

I think this could be our best Defense of all time, there was a thread asking this question and at that time i
said it was too early. It still is but to do all these things you speak of with an Offense that cannot run the ball
is even more impressive. All the while getting put into bad positions by the Offense in two of our five games.

The Ravens game and then this last Bills game where AJ was responsible for 2 of our 3 turnovers.

The Bills 16 points were scored off of turnovers and we still beat them with this Defense.

The Offense should only get better under Lazor and we are seeing some improvement every week with the
O-line. This should help the running game and getting either Ross, Malone or Core out there for some speed
as well.

Look for the Defense to just get better. Now lets curb stomp the Steelers ass.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-12-2017, 01:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think this could be our best Defense of all time, there was a thread asking this question and at that time i
said it was too early. It still is but to do all these things you speak of with an Offense that cannot run the ball
is even more impressive. All the while getting put into bad positions by the Offense in two of our five games.

The Ravens game and then this last Bills game where AJ was responsible for 2 of our 3 turnovers.

The Bills 16 points were scored off of turnovers and we still beat them with this Defense.

The Offense should only get better under Lazor and we are seeing some improvement every week with the
O-line. This should help the running game and getting either Ross, Malone or Core out there for some speed
as well.

Look for the Defense to just get better. Now lets curb stomp the Steelers ass.

It sure seems like it's shaping up to be a damn good one ! If they can only figure out how to scheme around this O-line running the ball ? Ross coming back will help early in games, gonna be hard to stack the box with both him and AJ out there.

Closing games out late and at the end of the season is where the real problem comes in.

Would love to see us dot the Steelers eyes like 37-9 or something.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-12-2017, 10:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: How about we just call more run plays that use the FB? Hewitt may not be Lorenzo Neal, but dude's a good blocker. He's also a decent pass catcher so we can still call pass plays from the same formations he'd be in on. I'm not saying using him will fix our rushing offense, but it surely will help, right?

Good, because Neal is the most overrated FB ever.

Only ever blocked for consistent 1,000 yard rushers, WHO RUSHED FOR THOSE NUMBERS EVEN WITHOUT HIM and the 2 (or 3, it may have been) years where he blocked for crappy RBs, they did dick all.

Jeremi Johnson, on the other hand, was an absolutely phenomenal blocking FB; really wish we had him for more years.

EDIT: Forgot, he was a nobody playing like crap in NO, for the first 4 years of his career.

[3wt]

(10-12-2017, 10:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: How about we just call more run plays that use the FB? Hewitt may not be Lorenzo Neal, but dude's a good blocker. He's also a decent pass catcher so we can still call pass plays from the same formations he'd be in on. I'm not saying using him will fix our rushing offense, but it surely will help, right?

If we do we need to run more pass plays out of the I.   We tend to run out of the I and pass out of the shotgun.

I think it was actually the opposite last year and I was complaining that we did not run it out of the I.

I will be very interested to see what Lazor comes up with coming out of the bye.  This will be his chance to install some new things.  Till now I think he's been just adjusting the philosophy and stabilizing his personnel.

I'd love to see them really be multiple out of the I.  When Hewitt is back we may be able to do that.  My concern being that the interior of the line doesn't give the necessary push or time for things to develop.

[HarleyDog]

(10-12-2017, 01:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Look for the Defense to just get better. Now lets curb stomp the Steelers ass.

(10-12-2017, 01:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Would love to see us dot the Steelers eyes like 37-9 or something.

I'm getting a chubby. Stop talking dirty to me!

[3wt]

(10-12-2017, 02:11 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Good, because Neal is the most overrated FB ever.

Only ever blocked for consistent 1,000 yard rushers, WHO RUSHED FOR THOSE NUMBERS EVEN WITHOUT HIM and the 2 (or 3, it may have been) years where he blocked for crappy RBs, they did dick all.

Jeremi Johnson, on the other hand, was an absolutely phenomenal blocking FB; really wish we had him for more years.

EDIT: Forgot, he was a nobody playing like crap in NO, for the first 4 years of his career.

Man I loved Johnson.  He was a great receiver too.  He had the same problem I do...  his appetite.

[J24]

Yes this defense is capable of carrying this team to a championship. In fact the majority of teams that have won the Superbowl have been defensive teams in the last decade.

[J24]

(10-12-2017, 12:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They rushed for  1718 yards as a team at 4.2 ypc.

They passed for 3970 yards.

5,688 total yards. That's not exactly an inept offense. I'd consider it a capable one with a great defense.

It was completely inept and they lived off of the defenses turnovers.

[*Synric*]

Even though I think PFF's ranking and player grades are wishy washy they still do some decent premium stats. The Bengals offensive line being the worst run blocking line in football giving the Running backs less than .5 yards before contact (0.42). That is very telling.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-12-2017, 03:45 PM)Synric Wrote: Even though I think PFF's ranking and player grades are wishy washy they still do some decent premium stats. The Bengals offensive line being the worst run blocking line in football giving the Running backs less than .5 yards before contact (0.42). That is very telling.

Agree,

I've never been a big PFF fan. It's a useful helping tool but isn't the final word by any measure, IMHO. Stats in general are easily manipulated to bend to your position and have to be taken in context.

In summary our run blocking sucks !

[THE PISTONS]

(10-12-2017, 06:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree,

I've never been a big PFF fan. It's a useful helping tool but isn't the final word by any measure, IMHO. Stats in general are easily manipulated to bend to your position and have to be taken in context.

In summary our run blocking sucks !

What I do like about PFF is they watch players EVERY play. Like what if a CB gets beat but the QB doesn't throw the ball to the WR?

For LB's everyone on here seems to think that Vigil is awesome because he gets tackles. PFF actually ranks him as a Poor LB. So the eye test fails in some instances.