My Question to Hobson

[shanebo]

Sent the below to Hobson, figured I'd share it here since he's unlikely to answer ...

Hi Geoff, I’m an avid reader of your Hobson’s Choice articles. Like many Bengals fans, I’m extremely frustrated by the general incompetence of our OL this year, particularly when their various issues were almost unanimously predicted by pundits and fans alike prior to the start of the season (but seemingly were ignored by the team). Our OL simply cannot buy enough time to allow our skill players to generate any offense whatsoever, and I wholly agree that they were “so outplayed” by the Steelers’ OL last week. My question to you is – What do you think is the root cause of our OL woes? Is it poor coaching? As you noted, we start four players drafted in the fourth round or higher, so the talent should be there. Or is the problem with our evaluation of OL talent? Maybe the players we drafted high just aren’t that good (recall that we drafted Zeitler over All Pro DeCastro). Is it the widely-regarded belief that we don’t spend enough money on the OL, and specifically on the interior positions? Our OL has a cap hit of $17 mil.; Steelers pay $40 mil. for theirs, including $11 mil. apiece on C and OG. Maybe the problem is our philosophy of not valuing the interior OL positions? It’s well-documented that we put a premium on OTs, don’t draft centers high, and refuse to pay OGs (letting Zeitler, our best OL, go to division rival Browns). In contrast, the Steelers, e.g., drafted C Pouncey (5-time pro bowler, 2-time all pro) and OG DeCastro (all pro/pro bowl) in the first round AND paid them $11 mil./yr to stay with the team. Those two players are the lynchpins of the line and the primary reason for Bell’s success at RB. Is it all of the above? Maybe something else? At this point, I don’t think we can say they just need to “gel” … It’s actually starting to remind me (God forbid) of the Bengals teams from the late 90’s, when our OL was trash (apart from Big Willie and Richie B.) but we’re drafting skill players like Akili and Warrick instead of addressing the line. Thanks for letting me vent. Frustrated Bengals fan in Philly.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

1. Decastro was drafted before Zeitler, so we couldn't pick him.
2. Zeitler has been as good if not better, than Decastro, his entire career. But, the teams they play for...
3. Pouncey is a POS and really not a good football player. His brother is much better, but again, the teams they play for...
4. Last week, we did not hold, nor did we tackle Pittsburgh defensive players on each and every play from the 4th drive on, like Pitt did.

In a perfect world with 100% parity, Stoolers' oline would get away with nothing and they would be a significantly worse line as a result.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-26-2017, 11:25 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: 1. Decastro was drafted before Zeitler, so we couldn't pick him.
2. Zeitler has been as good if not better, than Decastro, his entire career. But, the teams they play for...
3. Pouncey is a POS and really not a good football player. His brother is much better, but again, the teams they play for...
4. Last week, we did not hold, nor did we tackle Pittsburgh defensive players on each and every play from the 4th drive on, like Pitt did.

In a perfect world with 100% parity, Stoolers' oline would get away with nothing and they would be a significantly worse line as a result.

We definitely could have drafted Decastro and it is who almost 100% of the old board wanted. 

But we hired an O-line expert who told us Zeitler was better or as good and traded out of our slot for an extra 3rd round pick it seems. Think we took Sanu with it. 

Am fine with what we did and so was most of the board after seeing it play out. 

The debacle and what separates us from the steelers is that we let our guy walk and they retained theirs. 

Does not make sense to hire a O-line guru for a pick that is only going to be a few year rental.

Bungled another one. 

[bengals67]

(10-26-2017, 11:32 AM)Go Cards Wrote: We definitely could have drafted Decastro and it is who almost 100% of the old board wanted. 

But we hired an O-line expert who told us Zeitler was better or as good and traded out of our slot for an extra 3rd round pick it seems. Think we took Sanu with it. 

Am fine with what we did and so was most of the board after seeing it play out. 

The debacle and what separates us from the steelers is that we let our guy walk and they retained theirs. 

Does not make sense to hire a O-line guru for a pick that is only going to be a few year rental.

Bungled another one. 

All true except Decastro turned out to be better than Zeitler in my opinion.

Or the Steelers have a better philosophy on blocking and better o-line coach- that is also a distinct possibility.

Mixon would be killing it if he had an o-line that could hold their blocks like the Steelers do for Bell.

[sandwedge]

(10-26-2017, 12:06 PM)bengals67 Wrote: All true except Decastro turned out to be better than Zeitler in my opinion.

Or the Steelers have a better philosophy on blocking and better o-line coach- that is also a distinct possibility.

Mixon would be killing it if he had an o-line that could hold their blocks like the Steelers do for Bell.

They fire off the ball and hit someone, unlike ours do, waiting for the defender to get up on them...

[shanebo]

(10-26-2017, 11:32 AM)Go Cards Wrote: The debacle and what separates us from the steelers is that we let our guy walk and they retained theirs. 

This.  I personally wanted DeCastro over Zeitler, and I think DeCastro's grown into the better player while Zeitler kind of plateaued in Yrs. 2-3 (although I don't claim to be any sort of expert on grading O-linemen).  I always thought we preferred Zeitler because management figured he would be easier to sign and retain.  Regardless, I would have been fine with the Zeitler pick if we had figured out some way to keep him.  

It's this compounding of errors that frustrates me so much -- five years after the draft, the Steelers have an all pro OG and we have nothing.  Not how championship teams are built.

FN - We had pick 21 in the 2012 draft, but we traded back with NE for the 27th and 93rd picks.  NE took Pro Bowler Chandler Jones at 21 (and pro bowler Dont'a Hightower at 26), Steelers took DeCastro at 25.  We took Zeitler at 27, who fled to the green pastures of Cleveland this year.  Our 93rd pick was Brandon Thompson, whom we released this year.

Freakin' depressing ...

[*Go Cards*]

(10-26-2017, 01:23 PM)shanebo Wrote: This.  I personally wanted DeCastro over Zeitler, and I think DeCastro's grown into the better player while Zeitler kind of plateaued in Yrs. 2-3 (although I don't claim to be any sort of expert on grading O-linemen).  I always thought we preferred Zeitler because management figured he would be easier to sign and retain.  Regardless, I would have been fine with the Zeitler pick if we had figured out some way to keep him.  

It's this compounding of errors that frustrates me so much -- five years after the draft, the Steelers have an all pro OG and we have nothing.  Not how championship teams are built.

FN - We had pick 21 in the 2012 draft, but we traded back with NE for the 27th and 93rd picks.  NE took Pro Bowler Chandler Jones at 21 (and pro bowler Dont'a Hightower at 26), Steelers took DeCastro at 25.  We took Zeitler at 27, who fled to the green pastures of Cleveland this year.  Our 93rd pick was Brandon Thompson, whom we released this year.

Freakin' depressing ...

Yep we all wanted DeCastro if I recollect. Maybe one of the few times I have seen so many agree on a pick.

He was ranked #1 guard by everybody.  

Like you, could live with it better if we had kept Zeitler or the extra pick panned out. 

OL is way too important in this league to operate as we do. One would think FO would figure this out. 

[*ochocincos*]

(10-26-2017, 01:23 PM)shanebo Wrote: This.  I personally wanted DeCastro over Zeitler, and I think DeCastro's grown into the better player while Zeitler kind of plateaued in Yrs. 2-3 (although I don't claim to be any sort of expert on grading O-linemen).  I always thought we preferred Zeitler because management figured he would be easier to sign and retain.  Regardless, I would have been fine with the Zeitler pick if we had figured out some way to keep him.  

It's this compounding of errors that frustrates me so much -- five years after the draft, the Steelers have an all pro OG and we have nothing.  Not how championship teams are built.

FN - We had pick 21 in the 2012 draft, but we traded back with NE for the 27th and 93rd picks.  NE took Pro Bowler Chandler Jones at 21 (and pro bowler Dont'a Hightower at 26), Steelers took DeCastro at 25.  We took Zeitler at 27, who fled to the green pastures of Cleveland this year.  Our 93rd pick was Brandon Thompson, whom we released this year.

Freakin' depressing ...

I also wanted DeCastro, but I was fine with the Zeitler selection. What I think has separated them has been the coaching. The Steelers OL plays aggressive and mean, the Bengals OL plays passive and just tries to hold ground. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Steelers have turned an undrafted, older OT in Villanueva who was cut from Philadelphia in their preseason and turned him into a very good LT. Ramon Foster was also an UDFA that the Steelers have groomed into a good LG. Marcus Gilbert was a second rounder that has been a solid RT. Pouncey and DeCastro were can't-miss prospects. All five of their starting OL are solid at minimum.
Meanwhile, the Bengals have only one reliable OL starter in Boling. This is the fault of Paul Alexander.

[Mer]

Didn't the Bengals cut Villanueva at one time?

Just looked it up: He was a TE in Cincinnati and we did cut him. Another brilliant move by this coaching staff.

[Sled21]

(10-26-2017, 03:11 PM)Mer Wrote: Didn't the Bengals cut Villanueva at one time?

Just looked it up: He was a TE in Cincinnati and we did cut him. Another brilliant move by this coaching staff.

Well, to be fair, Chicago and Philly both cut him as well. I just don't think he was a very good tight end. When he put on weight and moved to the line he excelled.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-26-2017, 03:11 PM)Mer Wrote: Didn't the Bengals cut Villanueva at one time?

Just looked it up: He was a TE in Cincinnati and we did cut him. Another brilliant move by this coaching staff.

Sorry, when the guy is a little-used football player, fresh out of the army and doesn't have a position, how in God's name can you blame the Bengals for cutting him?

Of all the issues, this is far and away not one od them.

[Mer]

(10-26-2017, 03:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sorry, when the guy is a little-used football player, fresh out of the army and doesn't have a position, how in God's name can you blame the Bengals for cutting him?

Of all the issues, this is far and away not one od them.

Dennis Roland 2.0? He didn't actually become a soldier in the army until after they let him go. Cincinnati got him after he graduated from West Point.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/9/17/12942008/alejandro-villanueva-has-interesting-take-bengals

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-26-2017, 03:38 PM)Mer Wrote: Dennis Roland 2.0? He didn't actually become a soldier in the army until after they let him go. Cincinnati got him after he graduated from West Point.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/9/17/12942008/alejandro-villanueva-has-interesting-take-bengals

Got my timelines mixed up, but the fact he came back to football after 5 years before getting signed, further vindicates my statement.

[*bfine32*]

Something not mentioned in the DeCastro/ Zeitler debate is contracts.

Both signed for 5 years last year; however, DeCastro signed for $10 Million less. I think we had every intention to re-sign Z, but Cleveland went full ******.