McAlister: 'And people think Andy is the problem? '

[McC]

(11-01-2017, 10:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Except that all those 'excuses' are also an unfortunate reality. As I said, Andy certainly has his share of blame in those games, but the fact is that the entire team and coaching staff shit their collective pants as well. 

You're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you want to have of Andy brother, but you can't just ignore facts like they didn't happen, as far as the playoff games go.

Remember using AJ as a decoy for an entire half? 

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 10:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Because you're intentionally cryptic with your points? Kinda leads to people assuming what you're driving at, because people don't have the patience to deal with that crap.

2. That's why I followed with team attempts per sack. Kinda takes the whole "but multiple QB's" out of the equation. 

3. Only if you're dense or being intentionally obtuse. See #2...I just didn't feel like doing that math for 32 teams over a 12 year span. That would've required crunching the numbers of 384 teams, essentially. If you think I'm wrong about the 5 years I listed, go ahead and crunch the numbers yourself. Here, I'll even help you out by providing a good link:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing

But surprisingly you considered attempts in 2009. I wonder why?

I suppose we'll go with dense Mod as I am not being intentionally obtuse. I think I'll reserve conversation for others in this forum.  

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 10:41 PM)McC Wrote: Well, if you were swimming and you had an anchor chained to your back, how much would you have to say about the temperature of the water? 

You'd have a lot to say about the water temperature if you were used to swimming with the anchor on your back; however, if it were the first time you ever had an anchor on your back it'd be all you could think about, 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-01-2017, 11:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But surprisingly you considered attempts in 2009. I wonder why?

I suppose we'll go with dense Mod as I am not being intentionally obtuse. I think I'll reserve conversation for others in this forum.  

Funny, you keep talking like I'm bending numbers to make things look worse, but you ignored the link I kindly offered.

If you think the throws per sack numbers would somehow tell a different story, let's see them. Until then, toodles.

[Utts]

Andy is not the problem. However, regardless of protection, we can do better at QB, and the answer might still be on our roster thanks to the other inept Ohio franchise to the North.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 04:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the fact you have to go back almost 30 years to call horseshit speaks for itself. Palmer was always well protected. He did get his nose busted in a preseason game once and folks lost their minds, but his protection was always well above average.

Andy has had a very good oline his whole career up to this point. like I said each year a handful of QBs have to deal with an atrocious Oline. This year is Andy's and it is all folks can talk about.  

Yeah....nothing screams great line like Dennis Roland, Nate Livings, Stacy Andrews, and Eric Ghaicuic.  2009 was so great....we had to continually use unbalanced sets WITH a FB to generate a ground game.  

It's history repeating itself. The first few years, Palmer had a GREAT line. They let it go to shit.  Same with Dalton.  Palmer got more than a bloody nose....he got his elbow wrecked too, in case you forgot.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 04:35 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, lets's take a look at the 4 playoff games that Andy played in.

In 2011 against the Texans, the leading rusher and receiver was Brian Leonard. The offensive performance was putrid overall. The defense was gashed for 188 yards rushing. The entire team stunk up the joint.

In 2012 against the Texans, they Bengals ran the ball a grand total of 16 times and the O was held under 200 yards. Again, an abysmal performance. The D allowed Schaub to complete 29/38 and gave up over 400 yards.

In 2013 against the Chargers, the entire team forgot they had to play the 2nd half in one of the most embarrassing halves of football I'v ever seen in a playoff game. The coaching staff had absolutely no answers.

In 2014 against the Colts, they were riddled with injuries but were only down 3 at the half. Then, once again, the entire team did absolutely nothing in the 2nd half. On top of that, the D gave up almost 500 yards.

Yes, Andy certainly played his part in these losses, but so did basically the entire team and coaching staff. They were top-to-bottom failures. 

While I don't think Andy is an 'elite' QB and still has faults that can be frustrating at times, I do think he's a very good NFL QB and takes far more blame than he deserves. I don't have an issue with people criticizing him after a bad performance, as long as you also acknowledge when he plays well. What I don't like is people who simply bash everything he does without providing valid reasons for it. 

Sums it up to a tee.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 05:34 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: If you're talking just Palmer/Dalton era, I agree, we've never seen anything close to this bad as far as the whole o-line and as you said, especially at LT.  

We saw issues at C, RT and LG at different times during those years, but yeah, to have an entire line playing like shit at the same time is new territory for this era...and why the conversation does usually lead back there.

I do remember some of those mid to late 90's lines being pretty rough to watch as well.

While nowhere near as bad as what we've seen this year, I'd argue that the end of 2007-09, the line was pretty bad.  Anytime you're having to run unbalanced sets with a FB to run the football in this league, you're bad at your job.  The pass pro during those years weren't stellar either.  By 2010, they were starting to regroup, by 2012, it was a good unit.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 09:24 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: So we can all agree that the problem is the Piano Man. Seems like he has no clue on how to build or evaluate players where you have multi faceted lineman that can actually run block and pass block.

BTW....I'm not calling you a *****.....just thought the gif was funny

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 10:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Except that all those 'excuses' are also an unfortunate reality. As I said, Andy certainly has his share of blame in those games, but the fact is that the entire team and coaching staff shit their collective pants as well. 

You're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you want to have of Andy brother, but you can't just ignore facts like they didn't happen, as far as the playoff games go.

Oh yes they can.....if anything goes wrong, it's the QBs fault.  Some people don't understand all of the moving pieces involved in making a good football team.

As you said, Dalton shares his share of the blame in those games, but even the great Dan Marino couldn't elevate bad defenses and some mediocre talent on O, with some good talent sprinkled in here and there.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-01-2017, 10:45 PM)McC Wrote: Remember using AJ as a decoy for an entire half? 

Only "apologists" and excuse makers remember that....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-02-2017, 02:56 AM)Utts Wrote: Andy is not the problem. However, regardless of protection, we can do better at QB, and the answer might still be on our roster thanks to the other inept Ohio franchise to the North.

We could, but unfortunately, I don't see anyone offering those guys up for trade, and it ain't like we'd trade for one anyway.  FWIW, I was for drafting Bridgewater a few years back for competition, and wouldn't have minded Watson this year.

No, we don't have that on our bench. In my opinion, he is a notch below what we have starting. He's a good QB, and would make a fine stop gap, but I don't see AJ as a guy that can carry a team either.

[Bengalholic]

(11-01-2017, 10:45 PM)McC Wrote: Remember using AJ as a decoy for an entire half? 

Yup...what an ingenious piece of game planning that was. 

[Atomic Orange]

(11-01-2017, 09:57 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: You know what I see here?   A bunch of excuses for a mediocre QB. 

(11-01-2017, 09:59 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Funny that's how I feel about Dalton apologists.

Take the time to refute the evidence otherwise you are just trolling.  :andy:

[Bengalholic]

(11-02-2017, 09:44 AM)Wyche Wrote: While nowhere near as bad as what we've seen this year, I'd argue that the end of 2007-09, the line was pretty bad.  Anytime you're having to run unbalanced sets with a FB to run the football in this league, you're bad at your job.  The pass pro during those years weren't stellar either.  By 2010, they were starting to regroup, by 2012, it was a good unit.

Yeah, no doubt those lines had some issues of their own, especially when Gutcheck was at C and then Lurch at RT...but man, this year's line is just bad across the line - turnstiles at C and both T spots, and 2 G's getting exposed because of the lack of competence on either side of them. 

As I've said before, this group just isn't very talented and that's not something you can change. Boling is the best of the group, but his limitations become much more obvious when others aren't playing well, and then his play suffers.

They can't pass block with any consistency. They can't run block with any consistency. They have trouble engaging defenders, sustaining blocks, opening lanes, protecting their QB and then there's the coaching  - or lack thereof - which is a whole other issue. 

Basically, they're just bad at football. 

[Socal Bengals fan]

Andy is mediocre at best. he cant hang in the pocket, he scramble for shit, cant throw on the run, and isnt clutch at all. yes the offensive line is complete garbage but we can definitely upgrade at quarterback. i remember the first playoff game against the Texans AJ Green was wide open for a touchdown with a few seconds left. Andy over threw him and i kinda knew back then that Dalton didnt have "It".

[Bengalholic]

(11-02-2017, 11:38 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Andy is mediocre at best.   he cant hang in the pocket,  he scramble for shit, cant throw on the run, and isnt clutch at all. yes the offensive line is complete garbage but we can definitely upgrade at quarterback. i remember the first playoff game against the Texans AJ Green was wide open for a touchdown with a few seconds left. Andy over threw him and i kinda knew back then that Dalton didnt have "It".

Yeah, even though Andy completed 64% of his passes and accounted for 80% of the offensive yards, he also turned the ball over 3 times, which certainly hurt the cause.

However, you failed to mention that the defense allowed 8 - count 'em, 8 - drives of 7 minutes or longer...and allowed Arian Foster to look like Gale Sayers.

It's fine to criticize Andy for his failings in that game, and others, but you also have to acknowledge that there were many other problems that led to the end result.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-02-2017, 11:32 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, no doubt those lines had some issues of their own, especially when Gutcheck was at C and then Lurch at RT...but man, this year's line is just bad across the line - turnstiles at C and both T spots, and 2 G's getting exposed because of the lack of competence on either side of them. 

As I've said before, this group just isn't very talented and that's not something you can change. Boling is the best of the group, but his limitations become much more obvious when others aren't playing well, and  hen his play suffers.

They can't pass block with any consistency. They can't run block with any consistency. They have trouble engaging defenders, sustaining blocks, opening lanes, protecting their QB and their coaching  - or lack thereof - which is a whole other issue. 

Basically, they're just bad at football. 

You forgot "Nasty" Nate Livings....lol.  


Honestly, this may be the worst unit I've ever seen.

[coachmcneil71]

(10-31-2017, 12:55 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Re-watching the Colts game just makes me more infuriated with Marvin's insistence during the offseason that the o-line 'is not a concern' and during the season that 'they just need to play better'. 

Well, they're not playing better and that should be a huge concern. Watching this line play for 7 games now, one thing is painfully obvious...they're just not very talented. Each of them has glaring limitations, and as a unit, it's magnified even more so.

Boom! Very well stated & a shame that folks like us can clearly see it while the supposed professionals on this staff do not.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-01-2017, 10:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Except that all those 'excuses' are also an unfortunate reality. As I said, Andy certainly has his share of blame in those games, but the fact is that the entire team and coaching staff shit their collective pants as well. 

You're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you want to have of Andy brother, but you can't just ignore facts like they didn't happen, as far as the playoff games go.

You'd be best ignoring him, BH. This is the same guy that considers throwing 4000+ yards and 30+ TDs in a season to be a mediocre season. Or a team having a winning season is mediocre.

(11-02-2017, 02:56 AM)Utts Wrote: Andy is not the problem. However, regardless of protection, we can do better at QB, and the answer might still be on our roster thanks to the other inept Ohio franchise to the North.

Yes, we can do better at QB, but not much better. Andy is above average. So to do better, we'd need to find someone that's great or elite. We'd be better served using those resources in building a better TEAM that can overcome Andy's shortcomings, than looking for the ever-elusive elite QB. Part of the reason we were so bad in the nineties was Mike Brown's insistence on finding that elite QB. I'd rather not go back to that when we have a good QB already.

As to the idea that McCarron being better, possibly, but in his short time in games, he hasn't shown any reason why he would be better than Dalton. The same, maybe, but better? I would need to see more.

(11-02-2017, 11:38 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Andy is mediocre at best.   he cant hang in the pocket,  he scramble for shit, cant throw on the run, and isnt clutch at all. yes the offensive line is complete garbage but we can definitely upgrade at quarterback. i remember the first playoff game against the Texans AJ Green was wide open for a touchdown with a few seconds left. Andy over threw him and i kinda knew back then that Dalton didnt have "It".

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Yes, and true, but not by much. One play in his 2nd season was enough to decide that for you? Not all the game winning drives he's had in his career (at one point, he had one of the most game winning drives in the league since his rookie season - I think it was prior to last season)? Just a play where he slightly overthrew AJ in the last seconds of a playoff game?