Who is to Blame?

[HarleyDog]

(11-04-2017, 10:58 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Mike Brown's responsible for the weather, too?! 

Yes. 

[*bengalfan74*]

Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis form a perfect dagger that cuts on both sides completely through any ability for us to win.

Then Paul Alexander comes behind with a pole ax and finishes off any stragglers.

[PDub80]

Who's to blame? 60/30/10 split between:
60 - Offensive coaching staff and the Head coach for not prioritizing/scouting/selecting proper O-line talent and being too conservative and controlling.
30 - Andy Dalton for being inconsistent and taking on the personality of a head coach who clearly isn't built for today's NFL.
10 - Other players

I find it weird that some of you guys seem to look at Andy Dalton like he's some sort of baby deer or helpless being, barely able to walk, let alone control his own play on a football field and instead are blaming the owner.

Mike Brown has done things the right way since Marvin's reboot in 2011. Not only have the Bengals been looked at like a top tier organization from that point to now, they've have had top tier talent all over the field most of Andy Dalton's career. Top defenses, very good O-line, great weapons at the skill positions. Mike Brown is NOT the cause of the team's on field issues or roster deficiencies in any way, shape, or form. He doesn't solely negotiate contracts any more. He doesn't solely run the draft any more and, frankly, by letting the coaches work on the draft scouting and vetting process he's actually giving them MORE control of who they have to work with. He's stepped way way back. And instead of laying blame where it belongs... Coaching (partially) and players (partially) you go for what would have been a legit gripe in, like, 1996. Why? Because you can't bring yourselves to wrap your heads around the fact that while Andy Dalton is an awesome person he's also turned into a streaky, inconsistent mess on a football field.

- You guys blame the OC? Andy Dalton has had 4 now and, guess what? With the exception of most of 2015 Andy Dalton looks average and is incredibly streaky and inconsistent.

- You blame the head coach. Well, it was the same head coach he had when he was lighting it up in the ONE season he had that was top tier: 2015. More on this at the bottom.

- You blame the owner? He's had the same owner since 2011 and, according to some of you Dalton's been an awesome QB. Blaming the owner doesn't hold water here, either.

How about this narrative for you... At this point, Andy Dalton is an OK quarterback with 1 really good season, 5 ok seasons, and 1 horrible season. His successes and statistics have come from the amazing talent he's had around him most of his career and not because he himself is amazing. He's benefited from great defense, great coaching (I'm sorry, but Gruden, Zimmer, Hue have all gotten HC jobs and multiple assistants have been given great jobs and promotions elsewhere so someone outside of the Bengals thinks these coaches are outstanding.

If the Bengals put an amazing O-line, top shelf WRs, and a great RB around him Andy Dalton will do well most of the time. IF any one of those things isn't there and is stripped away.... We've seen who Andy Dalton is, which is just OK.

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Andy Dalton, but I'm not. I just feel like it's fair to hold him accountable. He's an awesome guy. And, frankly, I would LOVE to see him more willing to make mistakes and be more of a gunslinger - similar to Drew Breese. I actually feel like he would be better suited to that play style rather than this over analyzing, risk minimalizing, super safe, overthinking player. THAT, to me, is on Marvin and Marvin's personality. Dalton might have Stockholm syndrome from Marvin at this point. I want to see more of Andy Dalton from TCU who was going out to conquer the world as an underdog and nothing to lose. Andy has to find it in his personality to break free of the programming he's had under Marvin and speak up for himself and the offense. That's on him as a leader. He has to be a gamer instead of a game manager. He would be great at that!

The O-line has to get fixed before the Bengals become an elite team on the field, yes, but that isn't the only reason there have been struggled, either. They're part of it, but you can't just point to them, either. Even when they've been servicable there have been issues.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-04-2017, 10:02 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In general when you reach above average and fear making a change because you could get worse...you rob yourself of the change to be great.

Good enough is the enemy of great.

What Cleveland has that we don't besides all of the draft picks is a willingness to spend on free agents. I mean they're willing to spend on Guards and Centers. It should eventually pay off, but who knows?

I love the bolded part of your statement.  Dead on.  

[Bengalholic]

(11-04-2017, 12:11 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Not only have the Bengals been looked at like a top tier organization from that point to now, they've have had top tier talent all over the field most of Andy Dalton's career. Top defenses, very good O-line, great weapons at the skill positions.

I don't have time to address all the points you're making right now, but I wanted to address a couple that really stuck out to me.

When you talk all the 'top tier' talent this team has had and being a 'top tier' organization...I would ask one simple question: what the hell have these teams/talents done to be considered 'top tier' anything? Outside of 1 PM regular season games, show me where they've achieved anything worthy of top tier consideration. The entire coaching staff and roster has continually failed when they've had the opportunity to hang with actual top tier teams when it mattered.

Quote:Mike Brown is NOT the cause of the team's on field issues or roster deficiencies in any way, shape, or form. He doesn't solely negotiate contracts any more. He doesn't solely run the draft any more and, frankly, by letting the coaches work on the draft scouting and vetting process he's actually giving them MORE control of who they have to work with.

All that is true to an extent, and all those involved deserve their share in the blame game, but Mike still has the final say...and at the end of the day, accountability starts at the top. As Marvin said during the offseason, even though he, Katie and Duke are very involved and have a lot of input...when it comes to big / important decisions, Mike still has 2 votes to their 1.

So yeah, they all deserve blame and are responsible for their own failings, but Mike - as owner and GM - is ultimately responsible for evaluating, addressing and attempting to fix those failings.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-04-2017, 01:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When you talk all the 'top tier' talent this team has had and being a 'top tier' organization...I would ask one simple question: what the hell have these teams/talents done to be considered 'top tier' anything? Outside of 1 PM regular season games, show me where they've achieved anything worthy of top tier consideration. The entire coaching staff and roster has continually failed when they've had the opportunity to hang with actual top tier teams when it mattered.

Good point, Holic.  I will try to offer a bit of perspective around the Dalton-Green Era.  

Look at the Falcons and Colts.  Both have franchise QBs, both are highly thought of organizations, and both have won playoff games in that era.  The Colts won one, I think, and the Falcons made their run last year, blowing an astronomical fourth quarter lead.

Those teams were set to make a run.  So (were) the Bengals.  Our QB got injured.  Look what happened to the Colts without Luck and look what will surely happen to Green Bay and the Texans without their QBs. 

The Bengals were in position to make a run in every year but two of the seven years they have had Dalton and Green.  

I won't bore you with the details of the horrible playoff record, nor will I try to make excuses for the Chargers and steeler losses, because I put them entirely on the coaching staff.  But the point is, they were in position to make a run every year but the last two.  Marv has been completely tuned out and in some sort of revenge to not having a contract, he is sitting guys like Ross, Core, and Malone (who our GM drafted) in favor of the worthless Lafell.  He is also letting MJ start over Willis, Lawson, and Smith.  

However, my point is that the organization has had a very good record of drafting and developing talent in the Dalton/Green era and they haven't overpaid a FA that left them hamstrung and incapable of keeping their core talent.  There are about 5 teams in the NFL that have managed to accomplish that seemingly simple task over the last 7 years, and the Bengals are one of them.  To me, that makes them top tier.  Even if right now I want to hurt their coach.  

[Rattler]

I'd start by kicking Paul Alexander's worthless POS ass down river.

[Bengalholic]

(11-04-2017, 02:14 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Good point, Holic.  I will try to offer a bit of perspective around the Dalton-Green Era.  

Look at the Falcons and Colts.  Both have franchise QBs, both are highly thought of organizations, and both have won playoff games in that era.  The Colts won one, I think, and the Falcons made their run last year, blowing an astronomical fourth quarter lead.

Those teams were set to make a run.  So (were) the Bengals.  Our QB got injured.  Look what happened to the Colts without Luck and look what will surely happen to Green Bay and the Texans without their QBs. 

The Bengals were in position to make a run in every year but two of the seven years they have had Dalton and Green. 

Here's why - at least in my opinion - it's not comparable: The Falcons beat the Packers and Seahawks in the playoffs, and lost to the Pats/Belichick in the Super Bowl. While certainly a devastating ending, they still achieved a lot...taking their 'position to make a run' and translating into an actual run. 

The Colts won 3 playoff games between 2012 and 2014, including beating the Bengals, and made it to the AFC title game where they lost to the Pats. Again, a team that translated being in 'position to make a run' into actually making some noise and winning some games in the postseason. 

The Bengals have had 7 opportunities to win a single playoff game, and have failed on every occasion, including 5 consecutive...a feat so improbable that it had never been done before in the entire history of the NFL. At some point, if you've accomplished absolutely nothing with repeated opportunities to do so...it has to be considered a failure.

Quote:However, my point is that the organization has had a very good record of drafting and developing talent in the Dalton/Green era and they haven't overpaid a FA that left them hamstrung and incapable of keeping their core talent.  There are about 5 teams in the NFL that have managed to accomplish that seemingly simple task over the last 7 years, and the Bengals are one of them.  To me, that makes them top tier. 

Again, and this is just my opinion...I can't consider a franchise to be top tier when they have haven't won a playoff game in 26 years and is 0-7 over the last 13 years...not to mention the prime time record, being dominated by the Steelers and so on.

Not trying to be negative or not give them any credit, they have enjoyed a nice run of regular season success before 2016, but if it never leads to the desired result - winning at least one playoff game - then, at some point, what you're doing just isn't working effectively.

[THE PISTONS]

It's a total myth that we've been great at drafting and developing talent in the Dalton/Green era.

We have had 2 great drafts: Atkins/Dunlap and Dalton/Green/Boling. Beyond that most of our drafts range from Average to Bad. I wouldn't even classify any as good.

Now on the day of the draft Kiper and some of the guys give us B+/A- grades. But the actual results of the drafts and how the players play on the field has been subpar. You can then debate if it is a drafting issue or a development issue from there.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 03:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Here's why - at least in my opinion - it's not comparable: The Falcons beat the Packers and Seahawks in the playoffs, and lost to the Pats/Belichick in the Super Bowl. While certainly a devastating ending, they still achieved a lot...taking their 'position to make a run' and translating into an actual run. 

The Colts won 3 playoff games between 2012 and 2014, including beating the Bengals, and made it to the AFC title game where they lost to the Pats. Again, a team that translated being in 'position to make a run' into actually making some noise and winning some games in the postseason. 

The Bengals have had 7 opportunities to win a single playoff game, and have failed on every occasion, including 5 consecutive...a feat so improbable that it had never been done before in the entire history of the NFL. At some point, if you've accomplished absolutely nothing with repeated opportunities to do so...it has to be considered a failure.


Again, and this is just my opinion...I can't consider a franchise to be top tier when they have haven't won a playoff game in 26 years and is 0-7 over the last 13 years...not to mention the prime time record, being dominated by the Steelers and so on.

Not trying to be negative or not give them any credit, they have enjoyed a nice run of regular season success before 2016, but if it never leads to the desired result - winning at least one playoff game - then, at some point, what you're doing just isn't working effectively.

I agree. If we were going to make Tiers for the NFL. What would they look like?

The Top Tier would be something like Perennial Super Bowl Contenders.

2nd Tier would be like Perennial Playoff Team with a team that generally makes the playoffs but is no threat to win the Super Bowl.

3rd Tier would be Occasional Playoff Maker/Generally competitive team.

4th Tier would be Perennial Team that doesn't make the playoffs.

5th Tier would be Rebuilding Team.

6th Tier would be the Browns. :-)

Under Marvin we've made it to the bottom of that 2nd Tier at our peak.

[bengalguy71]

(11-03-2017, 03:29 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I put him at number one, not sure what's the beef here.

He also doesn't develop/draft players, gameplans, etc. His coaching staff has been by and large have been very disappointing. I give MB the most crap for setting a culture of being ok with mediocrity. 

The POINT/BEEF here HH, is he is RESPONSIBLE for ALL of this, and has the power to put people in place to get the job done.  Do you think these things were an issue from 1968-1990 when PB was in charge?

[bengalguy71]

(11-03-2017, 05:50 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: No doubt about it...Mike is and has been the #1 biggest problem with this franchise.

However, Marvin and Piano Man have chosen to work for Mike year after year, after year, after year, after year...........

Not only that, but having been here for 15 years and 20+ years...they are ingrained in the franchise, are both very close with the Brown family and each has substantial input...so they can't be absolved of blame just because Mike won't fire them. As '74 said, they are the three-headed monster, and that's where the overwhelming portion of the blame should be placed.

Do you really, for one instance, think that Marvin and 'Piano Man' don't believe they are doing the best job they can do???????  If you're the boss of ANY company, and the employees you hired aren't producing, you make changes, ESPECIALLY when the company doesn't have to answer to government regulations with miles of red tape and thick files before they are 'ALLOWED' to fire them.

[bengalguy71]

(11-03-2017, 05:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am somewhat surprised at the hatred towards Mike Brown on here.

I am not trying to defend him, but is this roster not capable of winning?  Was the 2015 not an awesome assembly of talent?  Sure, they made a business decision on Whit and Zeitler, but was the line really performing with them last year?  I blame more on schematic of predictability and not forcing defenses to alter their plan.  We simply play right in to the hands of everyone.

I don't 'hate' MB at all.  It's about calling out who is responsible.  Personally, I have to believe, if PB had turned over ownership before he passed on, he would be a raving maniac at how his son is running things!

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 05:20 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I don't 'hate' MB at all.  It's about calling out who is responsible.  Personally, I have to believe, if PB had turned over ownership before he passed on, he would be a raving maniac at how his son is running things!

Indeed. In business if you are a manager and the employee below you isn't performing...then you give them bad reviews, work with them to change, and get rid of them if they don't improve.

That said...when MB took over the team, the Bengals were HORRIBLE...almost Browns level bad for the 1st what 12 years of it. It's quite possible that he thinks Marvin is a great coach! Which is really messed up.

[BMK]

I can only contribute this...

Mike Brown devised, spearheaded and was the driving force of the trade with Cleveland. Marvin was totally against it. Had the deal gone through, Bengals would have had a 1, two 2's and two 3's in the 2018 draft. It would have been a trade that could have paid large dividends for years to come.

It was an extremely smart plan by MB

Lewis was against it.

Take that for what it's worth.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 05:51 PM)BMK Wrote: I can only contribute this...

Mike Brown devised, spearheaded and was the driving force of the trade with Cleveland. Marvin was totally against it. Had the deal gone through, Bengals would have had a 1, two 2's and two 3's in the 2018 draft. It would have been a trade that could have paid large dividends for years to come.

It was an extremely smart plan by MB

Lewis was against it.

Take that for what it's worth.

Didn't Cleveland call him 1st? He just held out and kept asking for more and more and more.

When you're a GM and you haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years...you're not going to convince too many people how smart you are.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-04-2017, 05:11 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: The POINT/BEEF here HH, is he is RESPONSIBLE for ALL of this, and has the power to put people in place to get the job done.  Do you think these things were an issue from 1968-1990 when PB was in charge?

But those guys have to execute. It’s not like he can do it all. It’s on Marv for crapping the bed in P.O., PAs fault line is not so good, OC plays first few games were garbage. I mean it’s MOSTLY him, but it’s not him drafting Akili Smith or anything like that. Just questionable things done by areas where he passed on power to.

Again, his the main reason for all this just not the entire reason.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:02 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: But those guys have to execute. It’s not like he can do it all. It’s on Marv for crapping the bed in P.O., PAs fault line is not so good, OC plays first few games were garbage. I mean it’s MOSTLY him, but it’s not him drafting Akili Smith or anything like that. Just questionable things done by areas where he passed on power to.

Again, his the main reason for all this just not the entire reason.

I live near Pittsburgh and I hear Steelers players on the radio after losses...and they basically say that coaches call the plays and they have to go out there and execute.

You're not going to just totally fool a defense every play. It comes down to blocking and execution.

When the players block and execute the play looks great. When they don't, it looks like a bad call.

I still think our lack of scouting is the real issue. Coaches just can't see guys play in person a lot because the games are during the season.

[BMK]

(11-04-2017, 05:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Didn't Cleveland call him 1st? He just held out and kept asking for more and more and more.

When you're a GM and you haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years...you're not going to convince too many people how smart you are.

Just comparing Brown's mindset compared to Lewis. Like I said...FWIW

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:23 PM)BMK Wrote: Just comparing Brown's mindset compared to Lewis. Like I said...FWIW

Lewis is in the final year of a contract. He's not going to be looking long-term.