Andy Dalton is an absolutely awful QB

[Section 126]

(05-15-2015, 08:09 PM)Ryuko Wrote: Right now? Marvin, hands down. Hue is far more ready to take over as HC than McCarron or Pryor are at QB.

For 2016? Marvin, hands down. I said it before, but it's worth repeating. Marvin's had over a decade and multiple QBs to win in the playoffs, and he can't do it. Andy has only ever operated under Marvin, and our postseason meltdowns are not limited to Dalton's performance.

Agreed. I don't have tunnel vision--I see the bad plays from Andy, and I also see Gio's fumble that would've been points against the Chargers, Green's drop that would've been points, the defense getting abused, etc.

The perfect example is the Seahawks' last playoff game. Wilson was absolutely terrible, but his team kept them in the game until Wilson finally hit a couple of throws late. If Wilson pulls that as QB in Cincy, we're down multiple scores and the team folds. Wilson needed perfection all around him, and he got it. I don't care about perfection, I'd be happy seeing everyone knowing their assignment and trying to execute. That falls on leadership.

[*Nately120*]

(05-15-2015, 08:35 PM)Section 126 Wrote: Agreed.  I don't have tunnel vision--I see the bad plays from Andy, and I also see Gio's fumble that would've been points against the Chargers, Green's drop that would've been points, the defense getting abused, etc.

The perfect example is the Seahawks' last playoff game.  Wilson was absolutely terrible, but his team kept them in the game until Wilson finally hit a couple of throws late.  If Wilson pulls that as QB in Cincy, we're down multiple scores and the team folds.  Wilson needed perfection all around him, and he got it.  I don't care about perfection, I'd be happy seeing everyone knowing their assignment and trying to execute.  That falls on leadership.

True, but Wilson doesn't do that 4 games in a row like Dalton does. We can go on and on about Marvin's record as a HC and the parade of great players he had (seriously, 0 playoff wins with Palmer and Chad? Ouch.) but Dalton has played so consistently poorly in 4 straight playoff games that all bets are off...right? Heck, it's not even 4 games in a row so much as 4 games over a 4-year span...eep.

Who knows. Sure, Kitna and Palmer played badly in the playoffs under Marvin, but still.

[Brownshoe]

(05-15-2015, 09:20 PM)Nately120 Wrote: True, but Wilson doesn't do that 4 games in a row like Dalton does.  We can go on and on about Marvin's record as a HC and the parade of great players he had (seriously, 0 playoff wins with Palmer and Chad?  Ouch.) but Dalton has played so consistently poorly in 4 straight playoff games that all bets are off...right?  Heck, it's not even 4 games in a row so much as 4 games over a 4-year span...eep.

Who knows.  Sure, Kitna and Palmer played badly in the playoffs under Marvin, but still.

You do realize that Dalton didn't have any help his first two years other than Green right? Then on top of that Houston had one of the best defenses in the league at that time. Last year Dalton didn't even play that bad against the Colts. You can't do much if your best receiver is rex burkhead. He should have played better against the chargers, but when everyone else started to shit the bed Dalton did too trying to get us back in the game.

[*Nately120*]

(05-15-2015, 10:04 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You do realize that Dalton didn't have any help his first two years other than Green right? Then on top of that Houston had one of the best defenses in the league at that time. Last year Dalton didn't even play that bad against the Colts. You can't do much if your best receiver is rex burkhead. He should have played better against the chargers, but when everyone else started to shit the bed Dalton did too trying to get us back in the game.

Ok, even if I accept your premise at face-value Dalton only had a shot for a single playoff game and he posted 3 TOs to 1 TD and lost at home. That's my point...it's not ALL Dalton's fault, but it's hard to use the following excuses:

2011 - he was a rookie and/or he had "no help" according to you (how much help is needed to beat TJ Yates?)
2012 - they didn't let him throw to AJ
2013 - who knows
2014 - everyone was hurt

All I'm saying is that he had what could be considered optimal conditions against the Chargers and he still stunk. So are we saying all Dalton needs are optimal conditions for a playoff win every time and he might win one eventually? That's my point. I'm not saying cut him, I'm not saying Palmer would have won a playoff game by now, but I'm saying that it's hard to believe all these things are keeping him down when he still fails when those excuses aren't present.

[Brownshoe]

(05-15-2015, 11:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, even if I accept your premise at face-value Dalton only had a shot for a single playoff game and he posted 3 TOs to 1 TD and lost at home.  That's my point...it's not ALL Dalton's fault, but it's hard to use the following excuses:

2011 - he was a rookie and/or he had "no help" according to you (how much help is needed to beat TJ Yates?)
2012 - they didn't let him throw to AJ
2013 - who knows
2014 - everyone was hurt

All I'm saying is that he had what could be considered optimal conditions against the Chargers and he still stunk.  So are we saying all Dalton needs are optimal conditions for a playoff win every time and he might win one eventually?  That's my point.  I'm not saying cut him, I'm not saying Palmer would have won a playoff game by now, but I'm saying that it's hard to believe all these things are keeping him down when he still fails when those excuses aren't present.

Why do people always think it's QB vs QB in games? Yates didn't do shit that game. It was all the run game / defense that won Houston that game. Also if you think that "optimal conditions" are his OL being decimated (and played HORRIBLY), and the defense not being able to stop the run if their life depended on it... then yeah he did. Dalton didn't play bad in the chargers game until everything else was falling apart around him. Yeah he still didn't play well, but Dalton has never had "optimal conditions" any playoff game he played in.

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(05-14-2015, 05:29 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: My first post.

On the real; kudos to whoever created this. I thought it would be fitting to have my first post be about ole boy stumblin' bumblin' Dalton.

I nominate CornerBlitz for Permanent Administrator rights.  

Cheers!

Nice to see you made it over CornerBlitz...

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(05-15-2015, 11:24 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Why do people always think it's QB vs QB in games? Yates didn't do shit that game. It was all the run game / defense that won Houston that game. Also if you think that "optimal conditions" are his OL being decimated (and played HORRIBLY), and the defense not being able to stop the run if their life depended on it... then yeah he did. Dalton didn't play bad in the chargers game until everything else was falling apart around him. Yeah he still didn't play well, but Dalton has never had "optimal conditions" any playoff game he played in.

Exactly. An average/above-average QB is going to need his team to play well in order to have a chance to win a championship.

[BonnieBengal]

(05-16-2015, 12:25 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: Exactly. An average/above-average QB is going to need his team to play well in order to have a chance to win a championship.

True. And Andy only gets the credit if he loses. His 10 win a season average apparently has nothing to do with him, according to some.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-14-2015, 10:59 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: Remind me again why that was a fumble. I see full control to the ground.

Ground can only NOT cause a fumble if you've been touched before/while hitting the ground or if the QB is sliding to give himself up. He was diving ahead to try and gain more yards so he's still considered an active runner until he's touched.

[*Nately120*]

It's not simply a QB vs. QB game, but Yates played better than Dalton did in addition to to Houston just outplaying Cincinnati. This is my point...Dalton isn't the only problem, but I think we should wait until he puts up at least an average performance in a playoff game before we start piling on the excuses.

Head to head? Not quite, but the fact that TJ Yates, Matt Schaub, Phillip Rivers, and Andrew Luck all put up better statlines than Dalton and managed to win is hardly a coincidence. But hey, Carson Palmer got outplayed by Mark Sanchez in 2009, so we had 2 QBs who are still unquestioned starters in the NFL who got embarrassed by not 1 but 3 QBs who have been laughed out of starting gigs, so that's on Marvin.

Again, we have 6 playoff games in the Marvin Lewis era and all 6 times our QB's stats are below, or well below the opposing QBs and, go figure, we are 0-6 in those games. Is it really that simple? No. But can we stop acting like the fact that we have 6 straight QB abortions and are 0-6 is some sort of jaw-dropping surprise?

[Brownshoe]

(05-16-2015, 11:48 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It's not simply a QB vs. QB game, but Yates played better than Dalton did in addition to to Houston just outplaying Cincinnati.  This is my point...Dalton isn't the only problem, but I think we should wait until he puts up at least an average performance in a playoff game before we start piling on the excuses.

Head to head?  Not quite, but the fact that TJ Yates, Matt Schaub, Phillip Rivers, and Andrew Luck all put up better statlines than Dalton and managed to win is hardly a coincidence.  But hey, Carson Palmer got outplayed by Mark Sanchez in 2009, so we had 2 QBs who are still unquestioned starters in the NFL who got embarrassed by not 1 but 3 QBs who have been laughed out of starting gigs, so that's on Marvin.

Again, we have 6 playoff games in the Marvin Lewis era and all 6 times our QB's stats are below, or well below the opposing QBs and, go figure, we are 0-6 in those games.  Is it really that simple?  No.  But can we stop acting like the fact that we have 6 straight QB abortions and are 0-6 is some sort of jaw-dropping surprise?

You do realize that Yates was 11 for 20 159 yards right?
Rivers was 12 for 16 128 yards.
It was the fact that our defense (our strong point) didn't do good at all, and our offense hasn't had a lot of real weapons to actually make it potent. The defense allows on average 150 yards a playoff game. If you're on offense that pretty much makes you have to throw it all the time if you had a bad run game like we do, and that makes it easier for their defense to predict what plays were going to do.

[*Nately120*]

(05-16-2015, 12:15 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You do realize that Yates was 11 for 20 159 yards right?
Rivers was 12 for 16 128 yards.
It was the fact that our defense (our strong point) didn't do good at all, and our offense hasn't had a lot of real weapons to actually make it potent. The defense allows on average 150 yards a playoff game. If you're on offense that pretty much makes you have to throw it all the time if you had a bad run game like we do, and that makes it easier for their defense to predict what plays were going to do.

Yea, I get it but aren't there QBs that throw the ball a lot but still manage to score more than 1 TD for every 8 or so turnovers? I get it, we make it to the playoffs and turn into a regular season version of the Oakland Raiders where we watch our defense stink and our QB just chucks it all over the place and hopes for the best. Outstanding.

[BengalChris]

(05-14-2015, 05:29 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: My first post.

On the real; kudos to whoever created this. I thought it would be fitting to have my first post be about ole boy stumblin' bumblin' Dalton.

I nominate CornerBlitz for Permanent Administrator rights.  

Cheers!

This is my first post as well. TY Bengalholic for getting this up.

CB, There's no gray area for you when it comes to Dalton.

I don't think Dalton is awful, but I also don't think he's going to take this team to the SB either. If it doesn't happen this year, will Mikey B stick with him?

The Cleveland game showed us what his bottom is and it's pretty far down there.

[Sovereign Nation]

(05-15-2015, 11:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, even if I accept your premise at face-value Dalton only had a shot for a single playoff game and he posted 3 TOs to 1 TD and lost at home.  That's my point...it's not ALL Dalton's fault, but it's hard to use the following excuses:

2011 - he was a rookie and/or he had "no help" according to you (how much help is needed to beat TJ Yates?)
2012 - they didn't let him throw to AJ
2013 - who knows
2014 - everyone was hurt

All I'm saying is that he had what could be considered optimal conditions against the Chargers and he still stunk.  So are we saying all Dalton needs are optimal conditions for a playoff win every time and he might win one eventually?  That's my point.  I'm not saying cut him, I'm not saying Palmer would have won a playoff game by now, but I'm saying that it's hard to believe all these things are keeping him down when he still fails when those excuses aren't present.

2011 - Dalton wasn't the one that was supposed to stop Yates. Our top 5 defense was supposed to do that. In a way they did shut him down, but forgot about stopping Foster.

2012 - The game plan was not to throw to AJ. Houston wasn't great at stopping the TE, so the game plan was devised to utilize Gresham in the middle of the field, but Gresham didn't come through.

2013 - our defense failed to stop the run. Gio fumbled the ball at one of the worst times. We abandon the run too early, and we don't use BJGE. A huge drop by Green makes the game harder than it has to be. Dalton didn't play great, but everyone else seemed to fail a lot in that game as well. To say we should replace Dalton and not some of the other guys seems a bit out there.

2014 - You said it- everyone was hurt. Not only that but our defense couldn't stop the Colts for anything.

[Attackcat]

My only hope for the offense this year is the stud running back duo and what should be a very good and stacked o-line. For the record I don't think Andy is even a bad qb I just don't like him lol.

[OSUfan]

(05-14-2015, 10:59 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: Remind me again why that was a fumble. I see full control to the ground.

It is only a fumble for a QB and not for any other player because the QB has the option to slide and give himself up. Since he did not and went head first the ground is then allowed to cause a fumble. Ignorant rule.

[*Nately120*]

(05-16-2015, 03:21 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: 2011 - Dalton wasn't the one that was supposed to stop Yates.  Our top 5 defense was supposed to do that.  In a way they did shut him down, but forgot about stopping Foster.  

2012 - The game plan was not to throw to AJ.  Houston wasn't great at stopping the TE, so the game plan was devised to utilize Gresham in the middle of the field, but Gresham didn't come through.  

2013 - our defense failed to stop the run.  Gio fumbled the ball at one of the worst times.  We abandon the run too early, and we don't use BJGE.  A huge drop by Green makes the game harder than it has to be.  Dalton didn't play great, but everyone else seemed to fail a lot in that game as well.  To say we should replace Dalton and not some of the other guys seems a bit out there.

2014 - You said it- everyone was hurt.  Not only that but our defense couldn't stop the Colts for anything.

Again, Kitna, Palmer, and Dalton have put up worse numbers than the opposing QBs 6 times in a row and we lost all 6 games...defense is to blame?

[Stormborn]

(05-16-2015, 03:52 PM)Attackcat Wrote: My only hope for the offense this year is the stud running back duo and what should be a very good and stacked o-line. For the record I don't think Andy is even a bad qb I just don't like him lol.

Quite the unique one you are.

[Brownshoe]

(05-16-2015, 10:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Again, Kitna, Palmer, and Dalton have put up worse numbers than the opposing QBs 6 times in a row and we lost all 6 games...defense is to blame?

The other QBs didn't put up better #s every time, and if they do put up better #s it's not even that much better (most of the time)... It's more of the running game that killed us the past 4 play off games. We can't rush for over 100 yards in a playoff game, but other teams on average rush for 150+ yards on us. That's my whole point, other teams QBs don't normally beat us. It's their whole team beating our whole team in every aspect of the game.

2011 - 76 yards vs 190 yards rushing
2012 - 80 yards vs 158 yards rushing
2013 - 87 yards vs 196 yards rushing
2014 - 110 yards vs 114 yards rushing (the defense allowed almost 400 yards passing this game too)

[yellowxdiscipline]

Oh look another Andy thread...