So...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2017, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We held Cleveland to 16 points while sacking the QB 4 times. It's amazing while some people will consider "playing like crap".

The Defense has out played the offense all year. Folks trying to make one game into a trend are just being silly and petty.

We played well on Offense yesterday and I hope it continues. Oline must have suddenly gotten better.

Meh, the Brownies moved the ball pretty well, dropped a TD, penalized themselves into oblivion, missed a FG......but, as usual, the defense DID do its job in the red zone.

[*Go Cards*]

Peko is missed more than most will admit.

[BengalsRocker]

If they bring that pass coverage and rush defense to the Steelers game.

They'll get eaten alive.

Let's just hope they use some patience when making tackles and trying to stop Bell.

Containment and not over pursuing are keys.

[sandwedge]

(11-27-2017, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We held Cleveland to 16 points while sacking the QB 4 times. It's amazing while some people will consider "playing like crap".

The Defense has out played the offense all year. Folks trying to make one game into a trend are just being silly and petty.

We played well on Offense yesterday and I hope it continues. Oline must have suddenly gotten better.

It's not a 1 game trend. Their tackling and letting ball carriers get to the outside has been happening all season pretty much. Wrs running around wide open also..We have an average defense.

[Sled21]

(11-27-2017, 12:53 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Peko is missed more than most will admit.

Yep, and the "Vigilantes" seem to have disappeared, even though he leads the team in tackles. I swear, if someone ,with conviction, that Marvin Lewis was the greatest coach in the NFL, there would be plenty of parrots repeating it.....

[*bfine32*]

(11-27-2017, 12:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: Meh, the Brownies moved the ball pretty well, dropped a TD, penalized themselves into oblivion, missed a FG......but, as usual, the defense DID do its job in the red zone.

Browns also dropped 2 easy INTs, one that would have been a pick 6 and a very questionable defenseless receiver call. Do we get to count those against the Offensive performance?

I've always followed the Bill Parcells model: You are what you say your record says you are. You are what the records/stats say you are.

[Millhouse]

As I've said, if the defense was as bad as the offense was before yesterday, this team would be sitting on 1, maybe 2 wins today, both against the Browns.

That doesnt mean the defense has been great or anything, as I see them as an above average defense. But if we have had a competent offense, even an average one, they probably would be sitting in a wild card spot.

[Shake n Blake]

We gave up 405 total yards, 21 first downs and 169 rush yards. To the Browns.

Last week, people were judging the offense based on what? The 190 yards, not the 20 points. Thing is, we all realize there's more to the offense than just points. They can't run. The pass blocking was abysmal for the first 8 weeks. We can talk in depth about the offense and ALL the stats that go along with it, but some get offended when we do the same with the defense.

The stats tell the story of what we've watched on the field. We've been solid in pass defense and pressure. Awful against the run (28th), awful on 3rd downs (28th in % and dead last in 3rd down conversions allowed) and awful in takeaways (27th).

These are stats that I feel are truly underrated by fans (not by coaches, who talk about the turnover battle and 3rd downs constantly). Takeaways in particular are huge. Consider that the #1 team in takeaways (Jacksonville) has 15 more than us. This has led to a whopping 6 defensive TDs (we have 2) plus 9 more possessions for their offense, often with good field position.

9 more possessions + 4 more TDs is a lot for 11 games.

Also consider that the bad performance against the run and on 3rd downs are both critical to Time of Possession, meaning even fewer possessions for the offense...especially combined with lack of takeaways. This is not me defending the offense. Our franchise-worst rushing performance has heavily played into that. But what goes for the offense also goes for the defense. They have to stop the run and get off the field on 3rd downs.

That and a few more turnovers would help us put more points on the board AND allow even less (they're good in that department).

[*michaelsean*]

(11-27-2017, 06:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We gave up 405 total yards, 21 first downs and 169 rush yards. To the Browns.

Last week, people were judging the offense based on what? The 190 yards, not the 20 points. Thing is, we all realize there's more to the offense than just points. They can't run. The pass blocking was abysmal for the first 8 weeks. We can talk in depth about the offense and ALL the stats that go along with it, but some get offended when we do the same with the defense.

The stats tell the story of what we watched on the field. We've been solid in pass defense and pressure. Awful against the run (28th), awful on 3rd downs (28th in % and dead last in 3rd down conversions allowed) and awful in takeaways (27th).

These are stats that I feel are truly underrated by fans (not by coaches, who talk about the turnover battle and 3rd downs constantly). Takeaways in particular are huge. Consider that the #1 team in takeaways (Jacksonville) has 15 more than us. This has led to a whopping 6 defensive TDs (we have 2) and 9 more possessions for their offense, often with good field position.

Also consider that the bad performance against the run and on 3rd downs are both critical to Time of Possession, meaning even fewer possessions for the offense...especially combined with lack of takeaways. This is not me defending the offense. Our franchise-worst rushing performance has heavily played into that. But what goes for the offense also goes for the defense. They have to stop the run and get off the field on 3rd downs.

That and a few more turnovers would help us put more points on the board AND allow even less (they're good in that department).

Yup yards are field position killers.  And I don't think they even sniffed an interception from the pickoff machine.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-27-2017, 06:09 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yup yards are field position killers.  And I don't think they even sniffed an interception from the pickoff machine.

Heck, that's something I didn't even dive into. That's another issue with our bend-don't-break tendencies.

Add in lack of takeaways and the defense isn't helping our field position much.

[Bengalholic]

(11-27-2017, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We held Cleveland to 16 points while sacking the QB 4 times. It's amazing while some people will consider "playing like crap".

The Defense has out played the offense all year. Folks trying to make one game into a trend are just being silly and petty.

The D has now given up 400+ yards 4 times in the last 6 games and 112 or more rushing yards in all 6. I would call that a bit of a trend.

[R3stangs]

(11-27-2017, 09:31 AM)corpjet Wrote: Dre typically doesn't get beat deep but gives up everything under the sun underneath.....the deep throw and catch to Corey Coleman was a bit of a shock to me........almost like Dre gave up not thinking the ball was coming his way.....

He also gave up a TD that was just flat dropped.

[J24]

(11-27-2017, 11:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...with a good pass rush...it should make the coverage's life easier. For some reason that doesn't happen here.

Kind of strange really.

Here's the issues I think:

Jones and Kirkpatrick grade out really bad. Jackson should be starting. Dennard should be a Top 3 CB. Jones should be the 4th CB.

Williams and Fej are both Below Average. Iloka is Average. We really need a better pass coverage safety.

Vigil is HORRIBLE. He grades out at 35.5 on PFF. That's a lower grade than Ced or Bodine or any of those guys at their worst. Burfict, Rey, and Minter are all Average to Above Average guys.

Then, Billings or Sims or whoever is next to Geno grades out at Poor also.

I think Pacman should be our 5th CB to be honest rather see Russell get playing time over him. Pac still a good returner though so he can do that. I don't think vigil should be benched but he is not a three down LB right now he should be splitting time between him and Evans. I also would like to see Williams move down in the box as a Nickle LB. Safety is tough one for me because Iloka and Shawn are good players I just don't think either one is playing to their strength though.

[*bfine32*]

(11-27-2017, 06:19 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The D has now given up 400+ yards 4 times in the last 6 games and 112 or more rushing yards in all 6. I would call that a bit of a trend.

You left out the offensive stats during that period as the debate (trend) is has the O outplayed the D. Folks can start a separate thread and ask does our D need to improve to have a shot at the playoff and I'll say Hell Yeah. But when asked has our Offense outplayed our defense I will say hell no; but then again that could just be my propensity to argue for no reason.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Eh, we need to get better at stopping the run and stopping teams on 3rd down. Will Jax, Dennard and Shaw should all be
starting ahead of Adam and Dre right now. Vigil has been bad this year, get Jordan Evans out there in his spot. Looked like
Vigil got hurt anyways. Billings should continue to get better with more snaps.

I mean, do i think the Defense should be much better? Of course but we are very good at stopping teams in the Redzone,
the best as CJD shown. Minter coming back should also help.

The Offense has been the biggest problem this year, specifically the run game. Nice to see a change of scheme yesterday
and i look for this to really help out the Defense going forward. We have lots of good players on Defense and while the 
Defense as a whole has not been as great as i thought they would be they are alright and it should improve.

[Bengalholic]

(11-27-2017, 06:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You left out the offensive stats during that period as the debate (trend) is has the O outplayed the D. Folks can start a separate thread and ask does our D need to improve to have a shot at the playoff and I'll say Hell Yeah. But when asked has our Offense outplayed our defense I will say hell no; but then again that could just be my propensity to argue for no reason.

Not sure another thread is needed since the OP already touched on the topic...

Quote:The defense has quietly been pretty rough looking for several weeks now. Let's hope they can get it together with the game of the season coming up.

And, I agree with him. The D has been trending the wrong way for the last 6 weeks. The offense still has plenty of work to do as well, especially since they've struggled most of the season.

[Bengalholic]

(11-27-2017, 07:13 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eh, we need to get better at stopping the run. Will Jax, Dennard and Shaw should all be starting ahead of Adam and Dre
right now. Vigil has been bad this year, get Jordan Evans out there in his spot. Looked like Vigil got hurt anyways. Billings
should continue to get better with more snaps.

I mean, do i think the Defense should be much better? Of course but we are very good at stopping teams in the Redzone,
the best as CJD shown. Minter coming back should also help.

The Offense has been the biggest problem this year, specifically the run game. Nice to see a change of scheme yesterday
and i look for this to really help out the Defense going forward. We have lots of good players on Defense and while the 
Defense as a whole has not been as great as i thought they would be they are alright and it should improve.

Yeah, the redzone success has been important because after a very good start, they've had some rough weeks. 

The offense definitely needs to step up down the stretch, and hopefully they can build on yesterday...running the ball better and getting better overall line play. 

If both units can improve their play of these next 5 games, then it could get very interesting.

[Shouldamapads]

(11-27-2017, 01:13 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Yep, and the "Vigilantes" seem to have disappeared, even though he leads the team in tackles. I swear, if someone ,with conviction, that Marvin Lewis was the greatest coach in the NFL, there would be plenty of parrots repeating it.....

[*bfine32*]

(11-27-2017, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Not sure another thread is needed since the OP already touched on the topic...

Hell, I'm not sure this thread is needed as the "Everyone wants to bash the offense" thread does a whole lot more than touch on the same topic as this one. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-27-2017, 07:22 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, the redzone success has been important because after a very good start, they've had some rough weeks. 

The offense definitely needs to step up down the stretch, and hopefully they can build on yesterday...running the ball better and getting better overall line play. 

If both units can improve their play of these next 5 games, then it could get very interesting.

All true, just sucks it took this long for the coaches to recognize we needed a change in scheme on the O-line.

We would be in a much better place right now and this next game against Pitt wouldn't be such a must win.

But we are still in it which is kind of crazy after that historically poor Offensive start.