Class Act Dalton

[packerbacker]

(12-08-2017, 02:02 AM)Wyche Wrote: So Brees isn't clutch.  

Not tonight lol.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-08-2017, 02:03 AM)packerbacker Wrote: Not tonight lol.

LOL....yeah not tonight. Thing is....Brees is clutch, just a bad throw....from a LONG time vet.  People say Dalton hasn't been clutch....a guy puts up statistics that disprove it, but the post is ignored.  The last couple years? Not much.  The whole team has been awful. Even the great Drew Brees wasn't clutch when Sean Peyton was suspended and the Saints had an awful season.  

My opinion, Zampese had no business around a playbook. Even so, we had a few games in reach, with 4th quarter drives....only to have Nugent and Bullock shit the bed. Somehow those are on the QB too. I just don't understand it.

[Rhinocero23]

(12-07-2017, 08:47 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Dude....you're agreeing with a cat that called a dude that played 1 partial season and is out of the league a "winner". C'mon faulk...you're better than that.

Wyche you almost had me going there for a minute...then I remembered your way too smart to believe this stupid shit you just posted and realized you are stiring the pot. FOR THE RECORD I WAS NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT TEBOW INTO THE TREAD. I just commented on what someone else had posted.

Below are some excerpts and some of my comments on a article titled is Tebow a winner.
Full article link below or you can grab the gist from the rest of my post.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1671601-is-tim-tebow-really-a-winner.amp.html

Like Tebow as a NFL QB or not (which I do not) to dispute his ability to be clutch and to rise to the occasion when the game mattered most DISPITE HIS OBVIOUS LACK OF NFL QB TALENT is foolish.

Over 16 career starts, he was 9-7 overall (including the postseason). a winning percentage of 56.3...now is that fantastic no. But take a look at Shake’s sig (that he will update after a Dalton win) not much better. Here is where the distinction starts to become clear...there's something to Tebow's makeup that allows him to provide winning plays in the winning moments of games. He made just 16 career starts, and won only nine games, but seven of those wins have come complete with a game-winning drive or fourth-quarter comeback. 1-1 in the playoffs (much better than 0 for a lifetime). In that PLAYOFF WIN (against our hated Steelers) On the first play of overtime, Tebow connected with Thomas on a deep crossing route that resulted in an 80-yard, walk-off touchdown. He finished with 316 yards passing, two touchdowns and a passer rating of over 120.0.


Here are a few quotes from people referring to Tebow as a winner...they may not be as knowlegble as you WW but non-the-less they are on record saying:
Bob Kraft - “he's very competitive and works hard, and has a great attitude, and he's a winner.”
Champ Bailey - "I've never seen a winner lose. He's a winner,"
Mike Pouncey - Hopefully the critics will get off him about what he can't do and talk about the things that he can do, and that's figure out a way to win the game, no matter what,"
Rex Ryan - The kid's a competitor and makes big plays with the game on the line,"

The guy swells up big in big moments. Dalton shrinks. Dalton is lucky to work for an Owner who rewards mediocrity or he too would be out of the league. If Tebow were lucky enough (actually unlucky for most NFL QB’s) to have been drafted here rather than Dalton he would more than likely still be playing and starting here. He would have also rode a great Defense over the same timeframe as Dalton has to a great regular season record. His ability to show up clutch when the lights are on would have most likely garnered us a few more primtime wins and a playoff win. That would have been heroic enough for this organization to award him a long long long run in a starting role.

As for a Quality Guy there is no denying that as well. This is where I do think Dalton his competitive with Tebow.

I will not even begin to list the college accomplishments for the 2x national title winner, Heisman winner, AP player of the year, 2x SEC player if the year, Manning award winner, 2x Maxwell award winner. I mean let’s compare that a Rose Bowl win and a Rose Bowl MVP for AD that has been mention on this board 1000x as proof positive that Andy is a winner in big games.

WW you are one of my favorite posters on the boards. Not looking to insult you just defending myself. As you may remember I was a much more regular contributor on the boards when the team was playing better. It was apparent in my eyes that the QB was holding back a great team. I still stand by my opinion that AD is the Bengals QB who has accomplished the least with the most talented roster top to bottom in the 50 year history of the Bengals.

Out of respect for my fellow Bengals fans who were still holding out hope over the last two seasons I have refrained from posting my observations as it sounds like a broken record.

Shake and others are passionate about defending Dalton at all cost...I was holding out hope if they said it enough times it might become true. This QB may have the “IT” factor to overcome Son of Paul. Unfortunately it is obvious he does not. Dalton needs every facet of the team, coaching staff, management and luck to be that guy. If you don’t believe me just listen to his staunchest defenders. They religiously point out after every prime time or “must win” game “if Dalton only had” (fill n the blank that works for that game) he would have won the game for us!

I will no longer burden my fellow Who Dey nation with my post for the rest of the 2017 campaign. No need for me to add to the misery. I will go back to reading the great debates that are so enjoyable by a great group of posters on both sides of the isle. Funny thing is everyone wants the same thing. I know what I will be asking for Christmas in 2018...a Bengal Super Bowl.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you on the board. Who Dey!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-08-2017, 04:18 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Wyche you almost had me going there for a minute...then I remembered your way too smart to believe this stupid shit you just posted and realized you are stiring the pot. FOR THE RECORD I WAS NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT TEBOW INTO THE TREAD. I just commented on what someone else had posted.

Below are some excerpts and some of my comments  on a article titled is Tebow a winner.
Full article link below or you can grab the gist from the rest of my post.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1671601-is-tim-tebow-really-a-winner.amp.html

Like Tebow as a NFL QB or not (which I do not) to dispute his ability to be clutch and to rise to the occasion when the game mattered most DISPITE HIS OBVIOUS LACK OF NFL QB TALENT is foolish.

Over 16 career starts, he  was 9-7 overall (including the postseason). a winning percentage of 56.3...now is that fantastic no. But take a look at Shake’s sig (that he will update after a Dalton win) not much better. Here is where the distinction starts to become clear...there's something to Tebow's makeup that allows him to provide winning plays in the winning moments of games. He made just 16 career starts, and won only nine games, but seven of those wins have come complete with a game-winning drive or fourth-quarter comeback. 1-1 in the playoffs (much better than 0 for a lifetime). In that PLAYOFF WIN (against our hated Steelers) On the first play of overtime, Tebow connected with Thomas on a deep crossing route that resulted in an 80-yard, walk-off touchdown. He finished with 316 yards passing, two touchdowns and a passer rating of over 120.0.


Here are a few quotes from people referring to Tebow as a winner...they may not be as knowlegble as you WW but non-the-less they are on record saying:
Bob Kraft - “he's very competitive and works hard, and has a great attitude, and he's a winner.”
Champ Bailey - "I've never seen a winner lose. He's a winner,"
Mike Pouncey - Hopefully the critics will get off him about what he can't do and talk about the things that he can do, and that's figure out a way to win the game, no matter what,"
Rex Ryan - The kid's a competitor and makes big plays with the game on the line,"

The guy swells up big in big moments. Dalton shrinks. Dalton is lucky to work for an Owner who rewards mediocrity or he too would be out of the league. If Tebow were lucky enough (actually unlucky for most NFL QB’s) to have been drafted here rather than Dalton he would more than likely still be playing and starting here. He would have also rode a great Defense over the same timeframe as Dalton has to a great regular season record. His ability to show up clutch when the lights are on would have most likely garnered us a few more primtime wins and a playoff win. That would have been heroic enough for this organization to award him a long long long run in a starting role.

As for a Quality Guy there is no denying that as well. This is where I do think Dalton his competitive with Tebow.

I will not even begin to list the college accomplishments for the 2x national title winner, Heisman winner, AP player of the year, 2x SEC player if the year, Manning award winner, 2x Maxwell award winner. I mean let’s compare that a Rose Bowl win and a Rose Bowl MVP for AD that has been mention on this board 1000x as proof positive that Andy is a winner in big games.

WW you are one of my favorite posters on the boards. Not looking to insult you just defending myself. As you may remember I was a much more regular contributor on the boards when the team was playing better. It was apparent in my eyes that the QB was holding back a great team. I still stand by my opinion that AD is the Bengals QB who has accomplished the least with the most talented roster top to bottom in the 50 year history of the Bengals.

Out of respect for my fellow Bengals fans who were still holding out hope over the last two seasons I have refrained from posting my observations as it sounds like a broken record.

Shake and others are passionate about defending Dalton at all cost...I was holding out hope if they said it enough times it might become true. This QB may have the “IT” factor to overcome Son of Paul. Unfortunately it is obvious  he does not. Dalton needs every facet of the team, coaching staff, management and luck to be that guy. If you don’t believe me just listen to his staunchest defenders. They religiously point out after every prime time or “must win” game “if Dalton only had” (fill n the blank that works for that game) he would have won the game for us!

I will no longer burden my fellow Who Dey nation with my post for the rest of the 2017 campaign. No need for me to add to the misery. I will go back to reading the great debates that are so enjoyable by a great group of posters on both sides of the isle. Funny thing is everyone wants the same thing. I know what I will be asking for Christmas in 2018...a Bengal Super Bowl.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you on the board. Who Dey!

I know you didn't bring him up, but you referred to him as a winner.  If you're gonna stir the pot, I am too.

I live in SEC country, and a Noles fan.  I'm fully aware of Tebow.....who, by the way, played in a system that made a 3rd string QB a National Champion in his 3rd game.   

Are we gonna pretend Urban Myer isn't a substantial part of Tebow's success?  Or are we gonna crown Cardale Jones a winner in the NFL for the sake of argument too?  LOL

So you found an owner, two teammates, and a coach of Tebow's say he's a winner.  Funny, when AJ Green says good things about Dalton, or Merv, or Mike Brown, or Boomer Esiason, or Andrew Whitworth, or Sam Wyche we get:  "Well what else are they gonna say about the guy"......or "They're not gonna trash their own QB".....or "They're getting paid to say that".   That's the thing with all of this trashing the guy.....people tend to talk outta both sides of their mouth and want their cake and eat it too.  So, are we gonna chalk Kraft, et al. up to "Whaddya expect them to say?".....or are we gonna allow the accolades from Dalton's teammates, coaches, and owners as proof he's a good player to stand? Tebow had a good defense in Denver too.

I don't get the hate for the kid.  He owns franchise records, we've won a buncha games, he has how many 4th qtr game winning drives?  No, he would not be out of the league either.  In a better system, he'd be even better, see Smith, Alex.  

Last night, Matt Ryan threw three INTs, two of which were HORRIBLE decisions.  Then, with the game on the line, Drew Brees throws a terrible INT to lose the game.  Do people criticize the shit out of them?  Or do they chalk it up as bad games against good teams?  You see, the difference here is, their defenses came up with big plays to bail them out.  Devonta Freeman and Mark Ingram had big runs to help their QBs out on the big stage.  Now, I ask you.....how often does ANYONE on this damn team step up when the QB is struggling?  Palmer, Kitna, and McCarron included.  Answer, they DON'T.  It trickles down from a sackless coach with an absolutely SHITTASTIC owner.  If you guys can't see the entire problem here in Cincy, then I don't know what to tell ya.

I appreciate your kind words, and I enjoy your stuff as well my friend.  I just happen to think your disdain for Dalton is a bit over the top.  I get it, he played at TCU, so he sucks (even though he was instrumental in building their resurgence).....but perhaps you should peep the records of him all the way back.  I have a friend that lives in Katy, TX, and I can tell you, in the most competitive high school football in the nation, they don't consider him a loser.

As for hope.....until Son of Paul steps down.....I have none.


EDIT: BTW.....I'm glad you took the time to address this.....so we got the chance to see each other's in depth opinion.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-08-2017, 04:18 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Wyche you almost had me going there for a minute...then I remembered your way too smart to believe this stupid shit you just posted and realized you are stiring the pot. FOR THE RECORD I WAS NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT TEBOW INTO THE TREAD. I just commented on what someone else had posted.

Below are some excerpts and some of my comments  on a article titled is Tebow a winner.
Full article link below or you can grab the gist from the rest of my post.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1671601-is-tim-tebow-really-a-winner.amp.html

Like Tebow as a NFL QB or not (which I do not) to dispute his ability to be clutch and to rise to the occasion when the game mattered most DISPITE HIS OBVIOUS LACK OF NFL QB TALENT is foolish.

Over 16 career starts, he  was 9-7 overall (including the postseason). a winning percentage of 56.3...now is that fantastic no. But take a look at Shake’s sig (that he will update after a Dalton win) not much better. Here is where the distinction starts to become clear...there's something to Tebow's makeup that allows him to provide winning plays in the winning moments of games. He made just 16 career starts, and won only nine games, but seven of those wins have come complete with a game-winning drive or fourth-quarter comeback. 1-1 in the playoffs (much better than 0 for a lifetime). In that PLAYOFF WIN (against our hated Steelers) On the first play of overtime, Tebow connected with Thomas on a deep crossing route that resulted in an 80-yard, walk-off touchdown. He finished with 316 yards passing, two touchdowns and a passer rating of over 120.0.


Here are a few quotes from people referring to Tebow as a winner...they may not be as knowlegble as you WW but non-the-less they are on record saying:
Bob Kraft - “he's very competitive and works hard, and has a great attitude, and he's a winner.”
Champ Bailey - "I've never seen a winner lose. He's a winner,"
Mike Pouncey - Hopefully the critics will get off him about what he can't do and talk about the things that he can do, and that's figure out a way to win the game, no matter what,"
Rex Ryan - The kid's a competitor and makes big plays with the game on the line,"

The guy swells up big in big moments. Dalton shrinks. Dalton is lucky to work for an Owner who rewards mediocrity or he too would be out of the league. If Tebow were lucky enough (actually unlucky for most NFL QB’s) to have been drafted here rather than Dalton he would more than likely still be playing and starting here. He would have also rode a great Defense over the same timeframe as Dalton has to a great regular season record. His ability to show up clutch when the lights are on would have most likely garnered us a few more primtime wins and a playoff win. That would have been heroic enough for this organization to award him a long long long run in a starting role.

As for a Quality Guy there is no denying that as well. This is where I do think Dalton his competitive with Tebow.

I will not even begin to list the college accomplishments for the 2x national title winner, Heisman winner, AP player of the year, 2x SEC player if the year, Manning award winner, 2x Maxwell award winner. I mean let’s compare that a Rose Bowl win and a Rose Bowl MVP for AD that has been mention on this board 1000x as proof positive that Andy is a winner in big games.

WW you are one of my favorite posters on the boards. Not looking to insult you just defending myself. As you may remember I was a much more regular contributor on the boards when the team was playing better. It was apparent in my eyes that the QB was holding back a great team. I still stand by my opinion that AD is the Bengals QB who has accomplished the least with the most talented roster top to bottom in the 50 year history of the Bengals.

Out of respect for my fellow Bengals fans who were still holding out hope over the last two seasons I have refrained from posting my observations as it sounds like a broken record.

Shake and others are passionate about defending Dalton at all cost...I was holding out hope if they said it enough times it might become true. This QB may have the “IT” factor to overcome Son of Paul. Unfortunately it is obvious  he does not. Dalton needs every facet of the team, coaching staff, management and luck to be that guy. If you don’t believe me just listen to his staunchest defenders. They religiously point out after every prime time or “must win” game “if Dalton only had” (fill n the blank that works for that game) he would have won the game for us!

I will no longer burden my fellow Who Dey nation with my post for the rest of the 2017 campaign. No need for me to add to the misery. I will go back to reading the great debates that are so enjoyable by a great group of posters on both sides of the isle. Funny thing is everyone wants the same thing. I know what I will be asking for Christmas in 2018...a Bengal Super Bowl.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all of you on the board. Who Dey!

I've updated the sig after dozens of losses. Heck, I'm looking forward to updating it, as his Prime-Time and overall rating are getting a boost.

You are just as passionate about attacking Andy as I am defending him. Get real. 

Merry Christmas to you too. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-07-2017, 04:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many drops were there on the last offensive possession?

Just so you know i got back to your post, as Synric said, one by Green...

(12-07-2017, 04:14 PM)Synric Wrote: Dalton's last drive? Drop by AJ Green, 8 yard run by gio, quick sack middle pressure.

Need a new Center so frickin' bad. I blame you PA.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-07-2017, 09:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Clutch means, when you get the ball at the end of the game, you drive your team to points and, more than not, wins. 

He's had 1 real 4th quarter GWD in the last season +. The Jets in the opener last year. 

I wonder how many times he's had the ball, late in the 4th quarter with a chance to put points on the board and not done it... Pretty sure everyone knows the 2nd half scoring woes of the team. 

Check out his 4th quarter passer rating. 74.4, good for 15th...in the AFC. #20 in the nfl is Alex Smith. He has an 89.1

He had done a good job up to the end of 2015. It will be good to see him with a different coach and a decent line. But i'm not about to keep throwing out excuse after excuse after excuse as to why he's playing the way he is. The really good quarterbacks find a way to get the job done, regardless of their surroundings. It's exactly why and how they are deemed 'elite' or 'very good/top 10'. 

And, again. Dalton has done that before.

Also, incorrect. He also did it against the Buffal Bills this year. 4th quarter comeback and game winning drive.

Yep. The second half has been dreadful this year. No questioning that.

Yep. And below him is Blake Bortles. A guy who is ranked 18th with a 56.6 QB rating. Yet, his team destroyed the Bengals and lead his division. But since his QB rating is so bad, that means his team should be bad too, correct?

Exactly. And Dalton has done exactly that. He has two down years in terms of winning. But you're only looking at one picture.

Dalton ranks #2 in QB rating in the 1st half with a 110.8 QB rating. Now, it does go down in the 2nd half with a 74.4 QB rating. Yet, Joe Flacco and Blake Bortles, two QBs that beat the Bengals, have worse ratings than him.
And yet the running attack is still horrendous.

These are not "excuses" for Dalton. Dalton has left plays on the field. But to put EVERYTHING on him is ludicrous. And to act like he hasn't been clutch is also ignorant to facts and stats.

[*bfine32*]

I hold Dalton accountable for his poor play more than most; however, I have never questioned his quality as a person.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-09-2017, 03:02 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: And, again. Dalton has done that before.

Also, incorrect. He also did it against the Buffal Bills this year. 4th quarter comeback and game winning drive.

Yep. The second half has been dreadful this year. No questioning that.

Yep. And below him is Blake Bortles. A guy who is ranked 18th with a 56.6 QB rating. Yet, his team destroyed the Bengals and lead his division. But since his QB rating is so bad, that means his team should be bad too, correct?

Exactly. And Dalton has done exactly that. He has two down years in terms of winning. But you're only looking at one picture.

Dalton ranks #2 in QB rating in the 1st half with a 110.8 QB rating. Now, it does go down in the 2nd half with a 74.4 QB rating. Yet, Joe Flacco and Blake Bortles, two QBs that beat the Bengals, have worse ratings than him.
And yet the running attack is still horrendous.

These are not "excuses" for Dalton. Dalton has left plays on the field. But to put EVERYTHING on him is ludicrous. And to act like he hasn't been clutch is also ignorant to facts and stats.

The Bengals scored 5 seconds into the 4th quarter, on a Mixon run, to go up against the Bills.  That is not remotely close to a 4th quarter comeback GWD, in the context it's mean to be.


Bolded: Yep. And that's why it's something i've never done. I pretty clearly stated that he was pretty good from '11-'15 but has been anything but clutch since the beginning of last year. 

One more fact. There's always a "reason" when he doesn't get the job done. And there have been A LOT of "reasons" over the years. I wonder what that says about him?

Since people are lazy and ill-informed, i'll state my belief again, just for the record. 

"He's a solid 10-15 QB when he has a decent supporting cast. When he has a good supporting cast, he has the ability to be 5-10. When he has a great supporting cast he has the ability to be top 3 (elite status--see:2015)". So, he has the ability to be great, but he's not shown that ability unless his surrounding cast is also great. 

That's not a knock, it's simply a "fact". 

[Shake n Blake]

Dalton's individual numbers are good this year. If you want to judge him based on the team's 11-16-1 record, then I will ask what QB has led a team with a 30th ranked run game, terrible o-line and mediocre defense to the playoffs? I'm sure some elite guys like Peyton or Aaron Rodgers might have. Brady hasn't even had to worry about anything like that. My point is that you aren't going to take a mid tier guy like Luck or Stafford and make the playoffs with a historically bad run game and line.

There's only so much "elevating" a QB can do. Especially a non-elite QB. Maybe Dalton could elevate a mediocre run game and line. He has before. He can't elevate a team the level of epic awfulness we've witnessed this year.